New Fish

[Swbvegas]

Getting tired of losing new fish. I don't get what else to do... my water is mature and cycled with good readings weekly. I perform water changes like I'm supposed to etc. Is this just part of the difficulty in keeping a reef tank? It's like half my fish don't last the first week. My LFS tells me just to float the fish in the bag when acclimation because my numbers are similar to theirs. They say just open bag and scoop water into the bag little by little over an hour or two then let the fish go.

 

[slingfox]

Do you have a quarantine tank? That is best way to maximize chances of new fish survival. Also, if that ammonia reading is ppm then you probably want to get it lower sooner rather than later.

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Getting tired of losing new fish. I don't get what else to do... my water is mature and cycled with good readings weekly. I perform water changes like I'm supposed to etc. Is this just part of the difficulty in keeping a reef tank? It's like half my fish don't last the first week. My LFS tells me just to float the fish in the bag when acclimation because my numbers are similar to theirs. They say just open bag and scoop water into the bag little by little over an hour or two then let the fish go.

Yeah, your phosphate is high given everything else, but that's not an issue that would be killing fish - with fish dying within a week, my thoughts would be disease (incredibly common cause of fish loss) and/or aggression (still common, but somewhat less so), or possibly overstocking/low oxygen (not very common, but it happens).


Can you give us info on your setup?

-A full tank shot

-Tank dimensions

-Equipment you're using

-Stock list (what fish and inverts you have in your tank)

-Feeding schedule and foods offered

-You're quarantine methods

 

[jabberwock]

Yeah, your phosphate is high given everything else, but that's not an issue that would be killing fish - with fish dying within a week, my thoughts would be disease (incredibly common cause of fish loss) and/or aggression (still common, but somewhat less so), or possibly overstocking/low oxygen (not very common, but it happens).


Can you give us info on your setup?

-A full tank shot

-Tank dimensions

-Equipment you're using

-Stock list (what fish and inverts you have in your tank)

-Feeding schedule and foods offered

-You're quarantine methods

All that, and how old is your tank?

 

[Swbvegas]

My tank is a 20g JBJ AIO

Currently houses only a Hectors Goby and now a royal gramma.

I had 2 clowns for 3 years in it but unfortunately the female killed the male so I got rid of the female also as I don't want aggression in the tank.

 

[xWascallyWabbit]

Yeah more I fo needed on your set up. How many are you adding at one time?

 

[Swbvegas]

As far as QT, I mostly just acclimate by a separate acclimation box for about a day, periodically adding water from my tank to the box.

The LFS I go to runs copper on all livestock.

 

[Swbvegas]

I only add one fish at a time, considering I only have two fish.

The tank is 3 years old. I never had fish deaths in this tank before when adding/acclimation. I've really only kept 2 clowns for 3 years.

 

[Swbvegas]

I will add some phos guard to see if I can lower it to .2, however I did get water tested after a 50% water change today and the level is at .3

Replaced the dead royal gramma.

 

[Swbvegas]

Sorry for double posts, having technical issues on phone.

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

As far as QT, I mostly just acclimate by a separate acclimation box for about a day, periodically adding water from my tank to the box.

The LFS I go to runs copper on all livestock.

I would assume a couple of things here - 1, your LFS probably runs subtherapeutic levels of copper (meaning it would help to suppress issues like velvet at the store, but it wouldn't get rid of the issue), and, 2, your LFS probably doesn't run therapeutic levels of copper for a full 30 days for each fish.

So, I would assume that one of your fish came in diseased, and now that disease is in your tank - so, every time you add a new fish, it gets exposed to that disease while highly stressed from transport, and it dies too:

To my knowledge, the answer is that they do have ich at the fish store, but - with either ich management techniques used in the hobby, copper medication/hyposalinity in fish store tanks (from what I've heard, in most cases it's probably this one; non-therapeutic levels of copper/hypo), or a combination of the two - the ich is suppressed (not eliminated) at the store.

So, when you bring the fish home and it gets stressed by travel and the new environment (and doesn't have copper or hyposalinity suppressing the ich), it's immune system weakens from the stress, and the ich pops up seemingly from nowhere.

My understanding for this (aside from any liability issues) is that most fish stores that treat with copper treat with sub-therapeutic levels; meaning that they use a little bit of copper, but not enough to actually get rid of the parasites.

So sticking with your penicillin example, the fish stores would be basically giving you way too small of doses of penicillin to actually help - the ones encouraging quarantine after would be basically telling you to get a proper dosage later.

From what I've heard, the thought is that the subtherapeutic levels of copper they run are enough to help suppress the parasites a bit while the fish are in the store's tanks, but not enough to actually get the fish healthy - so, essentially, it's to keep the fish looking healthy and alive long enough to be sold.

Personally, I'd pull your fish out into a QT tank (that's at least 10 feet away from your display tank), treat them with a chelated copper med like Coppersafe at 2.25-2.5 ppm for 30 days (it really just needs to stay above 2.0 ppm), then just have them stay in the QT tank until your display tank has been fallow for 60-76 days.

After the 60-76 day fallow period for the display and the 30 day copper treatment, your fish should be ready to return to the DT.

Since the copper treatment is only half as long as the fallow period, though, you might as well just run a full QT at that point:

Current Quarantine Protocol

2023 Quarantine Procedures Jay Hemdal David Scarborough Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed quarantine process can effectively eliminate these parasites before...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Swbvegas]

I would assume a couple of things here - 1, your LFS probably runs subtherapeutic levels of copper (meaning it would help to suppress issues like velvet at the store, but it wouldn't get rid of the issue), and, 2, your LFS probably doesn't run therapeutic levels of copper for a full 30 days for each fish.

So, I would assume that one of your fish came in diseased, and now that disease is in your tank - so, every time you add a new fish, it gets exposed to that disease while highly stressed from transport, and it dies too:


Personally, I'd pull your fish out into a QT tank (that's at least 10 feet away from your display tank), treat them with a chelated copper med like Coppersafe at 2.25-2.5 ppm for 30 days (it really just needs to stay above 2.0 ppm), then just have them stay in the QT tank until your display tank has been fallow for 60-76 days.

After the 60-76 day fallow period for the display and the 30 day copper treatment, your fish should be ready to return to the DT.

Since the copper treatment is only half as long as the fallow period, though, you might as well just run a full QT at that point:

Current Quarantine Protocol

2023 Quarantine Procedures Jay Hemdal David Scarborough Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed quarantine process can effectively eliminate these parasites before...

www.reef2reef.com

Thank you greatly for the information.

I haven't seen any signs of ich, for example on the skin etc. I almost guarantee you're correct about the LFS not holding fish long enough. This was my original thought, that the LFS is selling fish probably same day they receive them and then just selling them, leaving them stressed out and unable to adjust at a young age.

 

[Swbvegas]

Also, it's like the fish literally just don't make it past the 3-5 day mark. Don't eat, just hide. So I've now lost 3 royal grammas in 3 weeks trying to get one to stabilize. The same LFS has now replaced the fish 3 times, and each time they test my water etc, act like it's a mystery. I feel like they just keep replacing the fish because I've spent so much money there in the past on older tanks. These have to be really young fish that I'm buying and just aren't ready to be homed.

 

[jabberwock]

Also, it's like the fish literally just don't make it past the 3-5 day mark. Don't eat, just hide. So I've now lost 3 royal grammas in 3 weeks trying to get one to stabilize. The same LFS has now replaced the fish 3 times, and each time they test my water etc, act like it's a mystery. I feel like they just keep replacing the fish because I've spent so much money there in the past on older tanks. These have to be really young fish that I'm buying and just aren't ready to be homed.

Do you have an alternative LFS you can try?

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Thank you greatly for the information.

I haven't seen any signs of ich, for example on the skin etc. I almost guarantee you're correct about the LFS not holding fish long enough. This was my original thought, that the LFS is selling fish probably same day they receive them and then just selling them, leaving them stressed out and unable to adjust at a young age.

Yeah, with how fast you said they were dying, I would assume it's probably velvet, so the only sign you might really see is fast breathing:

True velvet is pretty rare. Unlike with freshwater velvet, you won't see distinct spots with marine velvet, towards the end of the infection, you may see some dust like tone to the fish's skin. In all stages though, fish will velvet will breath more and more rapidly, will stop eating, and hang in water currents.

 

[Swbvegas]

Do you have an alternative LFS you can try?

Yes, I think this is the ultimate solution at this point.