A thread tracking pure skip cycle instant reefs, no bottle bac

[brandon429]

someone could also ask them about expiring cycles

I once got into a big argument in a skip cycling post from a pretty notable blog writer about expiring cycles. the direct claim was: convention cycles work because it's all short term

meaning, after a certain number of days the ammonia carry will stop/be overwhelmed/cease to function

we could ask sellers if they're fearful of that experience



if that was a possibility, cycling charts from books wouldn't show a perpetually-controlled ammonia line after day ten (the ability to skip cycle instantly moves the cycle control up to day ten ability, on day one) but it's still fun to sample the folks with the big bucks on the line to see what their take is/the risk levels involved in skip cycling

reef tank cycles don't expire, ever, but it's still fun to poll the public take on the matter.

 

[Mikeltee]

I wanna see this $40k anemone!

 

[Mikeltee]

Looks great I appreciate it!

 

[Mikeltee]

Fish and corals are doing great a few weeks into my 5% live rock to dry rock skip cycle. The tequila sunrise mushroom has gotten considerably larger! I'm starting to get a little hair algae. I plan on adding a santa montica HOG1x this week to take care of it. I've had some SPS in there too and it hasn't skipped a beat.

Here is the liverock Bacteria donor.

 

[Macbalacano]

Just wanted to provide an update. Tank has been running now for over a month, about 5 weeks using this skip cycle method. Here is a summary of my learnings and the pros and cons to this method:

TLDR: Clearly this method works. You can have fish, coral and inverts almost immediately. Out of 40 new corals placed in this skip-cycled tank, I had 0 losses. 2 fish were added and both are very happy and healthy. 2 shrimps were added and both died after 1 week. This is likely due to predatory worms (hitchhikers from live rock) that I have in the tank. Quarantine is very important as per my note below.

Pros:
- Can place livestock in tank almost immediately
- More likely to have a minimal 'uglies' stage or not have one at all
- More biodiversity instantly in the tank which comes with many benefits

Cons:
- Live rock is more expensive than dry rock
- Potential for bad hitchhikers in live rock

What I would do differently next time (related to this method):

- Quarantine live rock for a few weeks in an observable aquarium. I would especially be on the watch-out for bad types of worms like polyclad worms and fireworms. Some hitchhikers feed on inverts and corals. Set up traps and get as many of these bad hitchhikers out before adding any livestock.

- Quarantine any new livestock and dip new corals as well before adding to the display

Latest tank shots

It has been a month since I gave this update above. Now the tank has been running for just over 2 months. I am seeing really nice growth on everything so far. The birds nest has really taken off. Most Zoas have grown multiple new heads. The blasto and duncans are also growing new heads. All my hammers have split new heads. Really happy with the tank's progress so far. Lots more info in my tank thread for those interested!

Latest tank shot below

 

[Ben's Pico Reefing]

Seems i didnt get notified for a few posts. But to add to this, just setup a tank. One coral so far and added a piece of dry rock just for assistance.

My pico had a missfortunate accident where the was a freshwater mix up I didnt realise till 24 hours later...

Literrally just added water and coral. Will be adding more slowly.

 

[Mikeltee]

Seems i didnt get notified for a few posts. But to add to this, just setup a tank. One coral so far and added a piece of dry rock just for assistance.

My pico had a missfortunate accident where the was a freshwater mix up I didnt realise till 24 hours later...

Literrally just added water and coral. Will be adding more slowly.

Do you have some Cycled dry rock in your return area or something? Skip cycle protocol means you need live rock. Not that you just skip cycling. Lol

 

[Ben's Pico Reefing]

The bacteria is on the coral. There is very little bio load from corals so not much waste for bacteria. If my tank was going to have a huge bio load, then sure I would add more rock for bacteria. But this tank has very little bio load. By the time I get ready to feed, the bacteria will already have populated on the dry rock used to help keep the coral upright. Further, corals are also not effected until nitrate is extreme and we cant measure that high. Corals can use ammonia but up to certain level before it can cause trouble. In fact, people dose ammonia to help corals feed as they do have their own nitrogen. But with a single coral and a bit of bacteria it wont get high enough. Nitrite doesnt effect corals. You never actually true skip a cycle. It is just having enough bacteria to process the load. The cycle is continuous and constant.

 

[brandon429]

If that coral gets feed and export it’ll grow in that setup. That’s not an unfinicky type of coral either, sometimes they don’t open up well in full stocked reefs it’s polyp behavior although great above might one day retract a while just because that’s what they do for a while

A big lobophyllia head would be far more predictable in daily open / close timing. Jake Adams did a tank like that one a while back in an article they do work if feed and export is in place. Nice minimalist scape.

Only littered accumulated food would crash the system with gross invasion but the small amount of food that small coral will command is no particular load once the walls fill in with bac slicks

Plus you can time the feed and water change cycle where it’s not much maintenance day to day but occasionally it’s bathed in feed for mass intake then a huge water change exports the unused and leaves the coral digesting a cavity full of food in totally clean water. That’s how I’ve cheated my small bowl reef into old age. Normally a fishbowl will just crash if we pack food and leave it in, but I rip mine out before it degrades the tank.

 

[Ben's Pico Reefing]

If that coral gets feed and export it’ll grow in that setup. That’s not an unfinicky type of coral either, sometimes they don’t open up well in full stocked reefs it’s polyp behavior although great above might one day retract a while just because that’s what they do for a while

A big lobophyllia head would be far more predictable in daily open / close timing. Jake Adams did a tank like that one a while back in an article they do work if feed and export is in place. Nice minimalist scape.

Only littered accumulated food would crash the system with gross invasion but the small amount of food that small coral will command is no particular load once the walls fill in with bac slicks

Plus you can time the feed and water change cycle where it’s not much maintenance day to day but occasionally it’s bathed in feed for mass intake then a huge water change exports the unused and leaves the coral digesting a cavity full of food in totally clean water. That’s how I’ve cheated my small bowl reef into old age. Normally a fishbowl will just crash if we pack food and leave it in, but I rip mine out before it degrades the tank.

Yup they are finicky and can be difficult. I found the cleaner the water the better. Sometimes they go through an ugly asjustment stage. It all depends.

Here is a thread of where I discuss issues with elegance years ago including what was called elegance coral disease, ecd. I have found benepets to be the only food so far i can leave in tank without worry. In fact I usually add after each water change. Currently i am waiting to feed elegance till next week and water change 2 days after. This will be the benepets new pellets. Elegance are definetly a bit of a princess lol.

Elegance coral

I lost an elegance coral about a month or so ago from elegance coral syndrome. Does anyone know how long to wait before adding a new one.

www.reef2reef.com

this build is actually following Jake adams. I have a thread on it. Eco reef zero is why I fell in love with elegances.

Edit: yup plan is to time feeding with corals. As stated. And 2 days after roughly do 100 percent water changes. Hoping my lfs will get the pink or red gonipora. That will be last coral for a while do to cost. Ill add 1 or 2 more later as budget allows. Plan to do water change before adding the goni. So probably tuesday or wednesday morning before work ill feed. Water change thursday or friday. Might feed tuesday just to give more time.

 

[X-37B]

Still folllwing this great thread.
Im currently setting up a 60×30×22 acro tank and a 30×24×16 frag system.

I will use around 120lbs of live rock from TBS most likely.
I will use a couple pieces to start my 50g frag tank.

Tanks will be bare bottom.

I was going to use all base rock and then add coral when ready.

Should not be much of a cycle since they ship in water. I am considering using premiun instead of base. However TBS says not to use it to cycle.

I have in the past bought live rock wrapped in newspaper deliverd to my door. The rock is compairable to premium rock of today. I had die off of course but I removed as much dead as possible before adding to the system.

Anyway what are peoples thoughts on using premium vs base for my new setups.

 

[Ben's Pico Reefing]

either or. Base you wont get all the critters and hitchikers or as much. Sometimes you might get things you dont want with premium. But if you want diversity as far as wild life and hitch hikers, premium.

No issue as long as there is enough bacteria for bioload. And bacteria will multiply very fast. Since your using all live rock, youll be good to go. My 2 cents.

 

[X-37B]

either or. Base you wont get all the critters and hitchikers or as much. Sometimes you might get things you dont want with premium. But if you want diversity as far as wild life and hitch hikers, premium.

No issue as long as there is enough bacteria for bioload. And bacteria will multiply very fast. Since your using all live rock, youll be good to go. My 2 cents.

Thanks! Im thinking the same.
Anyone else?

 

[Mikeltee]

The bacteria is on the coral. There is very little bio load from corals so not much waste for bacteria. If my tank was going to have a huge bio load, then sure I would add more rock for bacteria. But this tank has very little bio load. By the time I get ready to feed, the bacteria will already have populated on the dry rock used to help keep the coral upright. Further, corals are also not effected until nitrate is extreme and we cant measure that high. Corals can use ammonia but up to certain level before it can cause trouble. In fact, people dose ammonia to help corals feed as they do have their own nitrogen. But with a single coral and a bit of bacteria it wont get high enough. Nitrite doesnt effect corals. You never actually true skip a cycle. It is just having enough bacteria to process the load. The cycle is continuous and constant.

So you don't have fish? The elegances of your past were remarkable!

 

[Ben's Pico Reefing]

So you don't have fish? The elegances of your past were remarkable!

Thank you. I dont plan on keeping any fish in this tank. If I do it will be after I have all the coral and something like a flaming prawn goby. Those tanks did have fish. But didnt have a lid and they would jump. I finally got one. Which helped. But some tended to end up in corals mouth or i would take back. Or I would do something stupid. I got out of the hobby for a while and gave all my corals to fish shop. Included an elegance i believe from the recovery pictures and a catalina goby. I may add a pederson shrimp or a couple sexy shrimp but nothing large and more for loose food. And something else to watch. But dont want them overshadowing to coral.

 

[moretor1]

Hi everyone! This is my first saltwater tank.
I've lurked this forum for a bit and im very familiar with reefing as a concept/theory

I've been looking setting up a reef tank for a loooong time now and finally broke down and splurged on a 16gal biocube

I have skipped cycles using similar methods in freshwater tanks so this isn't that unfamiliar territory for me

Stocked the tank with the nastiest piece of rock I could find at my lfs and live sand.

Didn't pick up any frags on day 1 (except 1) as my LFS owner forgot to bring the cups up front when I was checking out but I did stock it with
1 Ocellaris flurry clown
1 watchman goby
1 frilly arrow crab (I saw him and couldn't resist)
1 cleaner shrimp
1 sunburst BTA frag
1 astrea turbo
4 small hermit crabs

I ended up killing the cleaner shrimp with my own incompetence as it was getting late and I forgot to specifically drip acclimate him longer. I know shrimp also tend to do that sometimes even if everything is ok as i have a neocardina colony but it still made me sad ... and it's not exactly as cheap as cherries

I found him dead after the 1st night Under my rock right next to my BTA.

The BTA was def a poor idea for the first night and the ammonia from being so close to the shrimp didn't help but it appears to be getting better
at first it was expelling zoo fluid and I thought it was dying, after observing and researching I decided it was probs ok

Day 2
i went to collect the frags the LFS forgot to give me. They were left in their cups overnight so the owner gave me a garauntee on them just incase
I picked up; 1 Duncan, 1 hammer, 1 random zooa, I green star polyp, and a neon green worm toadstool
they all appear to be doing decently and occasionally pop out for a bit
I added some chaeto into the media chamber of my biocube and will order a cheap LED grow light on amazon. (I will take any suggestions, especially anything I can stick directly to the plastic)
Now my is expelling stringy white mucus and I thought he was dying... but after watching him for an hour or so I occasionally see a perfectly fine tip poke out and go back in. No more zoo fluid I believe so I think he is either A. On the bring of death or B. Perfectly fine and maybe just a little stressed from acclimating.
He is currently grasped onto a rock upside down. Put my flow on high for a bit to see if it was secured and it definately was

On a more biology related note what exactly is the stringy mucus the BTA expels? I've seen large freshwater snails do the same thing when they were agitated and stressed. Is it possibly just a gastropod specific immune response? Like it uses the mucus to filter stuff out of its blood and then expels it?

Also check put this rad dead zooa eating spider on my frag

 

[Ben's Pico Reefing]

Hi everyone! This is my first saltwater tank.
I've lurked this forum for a bit and im very familiar with reefing as a concept/theory

I've been looking setting up a reef tank for a loooong time now and finally broke down and splurged on a 16gal biocube

I have skipped cycles using similar methods in freshwater tanks so this isn't that unfamiliar territory for me

Stocked the tank with the nastiest piece of rock I could find at my lfs and live sand.

Didn't pick up any frags on day 1 (except 1) as my LFS owner forgot to bring the cups up front when I was checking out but I did stock it with
1 Ocellaris flurry clown
1 watchman goby
1 frilly arrow crab (I saw him and couldn't resist)
1 cleaner shrimp
1 sunburst BTA frag
1 astrea turbo
4 small hermit crabs

I ended up killing the cleaner shrimp with my own incompetence as it was getting late and I forgot to specifically drip acclimate him longer. I know shrimp also tend to do that sometimes even if everything is ok as i have a neocardina colony but it still made me sad ... and it's not exactly as cheap as cherries

I found him dead after the 1st night Under my rock right next to my BTA.

The BTA was def a poor idea for the first night and the ammonia from being so close to the shrimp didn't help but it appears to be getting better
at first it was expelling zoo fluid and I thought it was dying, after observing and researching I decided it was probs ok

Day 2
i went to collect the frags the LFS forgot to give me. They were left in their cups overnight so the owner gave me a garauntee on them just incase
I picked up; 1 Duncan, 1 hammer, 1 random zooa, I green star polyp, and a neon green worm toadstool
they all appear to be doing decently and occasionally pop out for a bit
I added some chaeto into the media chamber of my biocube and will order a cheap LED grow light on amazon. (I will take any suggestions, especially anything I can stick directly to the plastic)
Now my is expelling stringy white mucus and I thought he was dying... but after watching him for an hour or so I occasionally see a perfectly fine tip poke out and go back in. No more zoo fluid I believe so I think he is either A. On the bring of death or B. Perfectly fine and maybe just a little stressed from acclimating.
He is currently grasped onto a rock upside down. Put my flow on high for a bit to see if it was secured and it definately was

On a more biology related note what exactly is the stringy mucus the BTA expels? I've seen large freshwater snails do the same thing when they were agitated and stressed. Is it possibly just a gastropod specific immune response? Like it uses the mucus to filter stuff out of its blood and then expels it?

Also check put this rad dead zooa eating spider on my frag

Rhat looks like a sea spider. Remove immediatly and verify. These are known to eat coral this appears to be zoa but I dont know enough if they are selective in coral they eat. If it came in from the lfs, check everything.

Edit, this could be why your corals are closed up and the anemone not well. If all from lfs I would notify and see what they do before buying anything else there. They may not know. You can search reef2reef and see all sorts of images and help with these as well as verify yourself.

 

[moretor1]

Rhat looks like a sea spider. Remove immediatly and verify. These are known to eat coral this appears to be zoa but I dont know enough if they are selective in coral they eat. If it came in from the lfs, check everything.

Edit, this could be why your corals are closed up and the anemone not well. If all from lfs I would notify and see what they do before buying anything else there. They may not know. You can search reef2reef and see all sorts of images and help with these as well as verify yourself.

the spider is 100% dead. i stared at it for the first day and it didnt move. ended up prodding it out of curiosity and it was already half absorbed by the zooa.
The photos of the coral are all fairly early and my lights were just starting to come on. they all fully extend for a bit throughout the day but they are still adjusting
I'll watch the nem for a few more days and make a decision, may end up having him chill at the LFS if it gets worse but so far it's been looking better

 

[brandon429]

this is your first reef tank>

Those items selected would be hard to keep if you spaced them out like typical builds/day one with that load is amazing test for first go. That lfs recommended an anemone that fast is that right?

You'll have acclimation challenges, a lot of the scape is dry rock and the lighting details aren't stated/ too bright can kill corals there's acclimation requirements

Your fish likely potentially jumped from a very low to a very high salinity, same for inverts (pet stores keep very low salinity water to suppress disease outbreaks) unstated details like that are missing from the troubleshoot

your stuff is in higher salinity now + no disease preps

the challenges here don't involve cycle control its the speed of reefing/ assembly rate

the way someone prepares saltwater matters greatly, we don't have the same production controls 1st go like we do after reefing for a while with common starting fare and building up stock rates based on success.

I can see it was assembled all though on day one, indeed a lot was packed in.

 

[Ben's Pico Reefing]

2 week tank shot with new frogspawn added yesterday for update. No bottle bacteria, no live rock, nothing in sump but heater pump and thin filter sock.