Bacteria maintenance. What do you dose?

[brandon429]

Bottle bac sellers are also profiting wildly because there are no published articles about surface area proofing. Tales and guessing abound about what bacteria need or don’t need from us to thrive, and they have something for peace of mind $.

For example, it has been said for no less than 25 years by all reefers that we cannot instantly remove a sandbed without ramp down. The live rock wouldn’t have time to take on more bac (as if open spaces exist uncolonized unregulated by water shear etc)

If you start a poll, even 98% will claim it nowadays

It’s not how surface area works, or self regulates, the opposite simple fact is true: if a given # of live rock can run a system stand alone, then removing all incidental surface area surrounding it doesn’t weaken the filtration capacity of the remaining live rock. We’ve been fed the Lamarckian version of reef microbiology, so now we buy bottle bac just in case.
In the sand rinse thread we remove full sandbeds instantly, measuring the impacts of the same bioload now just ran by a chunk of rocks. We measured with mindstream digital, not a guess between slight green or yellow.

Reef tanks can always handle waste ammonia from common living creatures. If a given set of rocks can run twenty two fish, and we’ve only started with ten, then adding the other twelve doesn’t cause an ammonia spike, surfaces don’t ramp up. If it’s been submerged in a reef tank, it’s got total bac coverage

We measured with living fish after tank transfers for four years running, no ammonia spikes as live rock does not take on replacement bacteria when surrounding surface area is removed

The remaining surface area is either enough or it isn’t. It’s not possible to have sustained .25 ammonia, events are all doom or they are all success where surface area is in question.
Additionally, anyone here can install ten canister filters on their reef, run them six years, then instantly remove them with no harm to the greater system, and no parameter other than nitrate affected.

We wouldn’t use bottle bac in the sand rinse thread as a matter of human pride.

 

[AquaBiomics]

People talk about bacterial diversity as if it was an inherent virtue. Even if adding bacteria increases diversity, why is that desirable?

I'm sure you're aware of the century or so of Ecology research that has generally found diversity increases productivity, resilience, and stability... But other readers may not be.

I appreciate your calls for data to support this in the case of aquariums, and agree there are lots of unknowns here.

But we should be clear that it's not as if diversity was some new fad (like bottled bacteria). Ecologists value diversity in general for good and well established reasons.

 

[brandon429]

Your study showed live rock provides that just fine, no boosting needed. So does all the practical application studies from long term reef systems, live rock self regulates if you backflush it somehow either by system flow design or by maintenance.

When we pay $ for someone’s top coralline chunk rock with worms and sponges we get something that doesn’t ever need recharging. Corals will just grow and be pumped infinitely until hardware doom but the live rock changes in diversity don’t bring on disease, or weakened growth, or anything we have to pay to boost past the initial live rock investment.

Systems always trend for species selection based on unique characters over time, what they arrive at with basic feeding and water changes works fine, we’re sure.

 

[Euphyllia97]

Nothing! I think if you have a normal functioning tank (no real problems). You can just maintain your husbandry schedule without hurting your bacteria colonies. I have the feeling if you really have to dose bacteria, something in your tank is lacking. (Could just be immaturity of the aquarium).

I let nature take its course and never had any problems so far... I guess it doesn’t hurt to add some after a significant change to the rocks for example, however I’m not convinced if they really work.

 

[LARedstickreefer]

I doubt it’s going to proven, or disproven, any time soon, whether or not bacteria supplements actually help.

I’m more interested in what types of bacteria we are getting in these bottles, if it’s even alive, and if it’s different than what we already have in our tanks.

We need to 23andMe some Zeobak.

 

[AquaBiomics]

Measuring whats in the bottles is the easy part. The more challenging part is sorting out whether adding it has any effect on the community at all.

23andme doesn't offer the service but I know a place that does

 

[BrianReefer]

I used Waste Away when I was battling a dinos problem (along with our measures) and it worked well. After that i continued to dose the remainder of the bottle weekly over the next few weeks, but stopped dosing after that. I still have another bottle in case of another dino outbreak but for the reasons in this thread I decided to not dose unless that happens.

 

[LARedstickreefer]

Measuring whats in the bottles is the easy part. The more challenging part is sorting out whether adding it has any effect on the community at all.

23andme doesn't offer the service but I know a place that does

Does that mean you are volunteering to measure some of the popular bacteria supplements for us?

As far as usefulness goes, it would take some rigorous scientific trials to prove it helps. I noticed positive benefits two weeks after I started dosing, but many things could have accounted for it as well.

 

[HB AL]

I've never dosed bacteria in a bottle in over 30 years, so its definitely not necessary.

 

[LARedstickreefer]

I've never dosed bacteria in a bottle in over 30 years, so its definitely not necessary.

Not necessary, for sure in a healthy tank, but is it useful? Corals eat bacteria, right? Bacteria eat phosphate. Maybe having more bacteria than usual could help feed corals instead of target feeding them stuff that’s going to wind up in your skimmer?

 

[AquaBiomics]

Two different things are getting discussed in this thread: more microbes, and more kinds of microbes (diversity)

Fwiw I'm not aware of evidence that bottled bacteria change either one. Not disputing that they could ...

 

[HB AL]

I dont feed my corals other than whatever they get when I feed my fish and the fish poop.

 

[Terry Mattson]

I started using vibrant in Hope's it would reduce bubble algae outbreak. One benefit is since using vibrant I no longer have to clean glass of algea. The bubble algae has stopped spreading but is not going away. I dose once a week per directions. Sand stays clean and white. I stir it occasionally. Have shallow sand bed 1 to 2 inches. Have a sandsifiting diamond goby. One observation is that my pod population has disappeared to low levels. Even in refugium. I harvest my own pods externally about 7 to 10 days and dose live phytoplankton daily. I have a clam and mandarin ... so need those pods. I am wondering if using vibrant is competing with food for the pods??? May stop vibrant to see how the tank balances and monitor pod population. I added two tuxedo Urchins to hopefully eat the bubble but no luck so far. They stick to green and purple ....

 

[fermentedhiker]

Well if my understanding of products like Waste away and vibrant are correct these are completely different than the bacteria in our tanks. These are heterotrophic digesters that do not reproduce successfully long term in our systems. Which is why they aren't a one and done product. It also means they don't add to the tanks diversity long term. They perform a function and then expire or are consumed etc... In my mind they should be used like carbon/purigen/ as a product you use to deal with a specific issue. Also IMO these products don't make sense to use as a maintenance dosing product(which isn't to say they don't do anything if used that way) because if Nitrate/phosphate reduction is the primary reason carbon dosing is a much cheaper way to get the bacteria which are naturally in our tanks to do the same job. But if you are having a pest algae outbreak and want to spend the money to help get it under control quicker along with addressing the underlying issue I don't see a problem with it.

 

[LARedstickreefer]

Two different things are getting discussed in this thread: more microbes, and more kinds of microbes (diversity)

Fwiw I'm not aware of evidence that bottled bacteria change either one. Not disputing that they could ...

One thing that concerns me about bacteria in a bottle is that the bacteria being used is something that is short lived and needs constant re-upping...What if this bacteria just so happens to outcompete the bacteria that we naturally have in our tanks? So, it knocks down the native bacteria and then it dies off/gets eaten, leaving room for nasties to take hold.

 

[ScottB]

I dosed Vibrant for maybe 6 weeks to resolve some bubble algae. I cannot say for sure that it worked, because I also threw a handful of emerald crabs in at the same time.

Perhaps it kept my glass clearer for an extra 1/2 day, maybe not. Fairly sure it removed a few ppm of nitrate, nothing crazy.

I never bought a second bottle.

 

[Mical]

I started using vibrant in Hope's it would reduce bubble algae outbreak. One benefit is since using vibrant I no longer have to clean glass of algea. The bubble algae has stopped spreading but is not going away. I dose once a week per directions. Sand stays clean and white. I stir it occasionally. Have shallow sand bed 1 to 2 inches. Have a sandsifiting diamond goby. One observation is that my pod population has disappeared to low levels. Even in refugium. I harvest my own pods externally about 7 to 10 days and dose live phytoplankton daily. I have a clam and mandarin ... so need those pods. I am wondering if using vibrant is competing with food for the pods??? May stop vibrant to see how the tank balances and monitor pod population. I added two tuxedo Urchins to hopefully eat the bubble but no luck so far. They stick to green and purple ....

I'm surprised you have anything in your sump after using Vibrant, it'll eat away at your cheato too. Explains pods disappearing. Your urchins will all algae except bubble algae. You might consider a small rabbitfish or foxface they'll decimate your bubble algae. Some say emerald crabs will too, but the only luck I've had is w/Rabbitfish-Foxface.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm sure you're aware of the century or so of Ecology research that has generally found diversity increases productivity, resilience, and stability... But other readers may not be.

I appreciate your calls for data to support this in the case of aquariums, and agree there are lots of unknowns here.

But we should be clear that it's not as if diversity was some new fad (like bottled bacteria). Ecologists value diversity in general for good and well established reasons.

I don't agree with this sort of vague, unsubstantiated generalization that is often accepted without question by reefers willing to do whatever they can to help their tanks. Reef tanks already have tremendous bacterial diversity. So it is hardly clear that having more is necessarily desirable.

I could (and do) argue that by dosing bacteria you are taking the most well adapted species that already live in a reef tank, and diluting them and causing competition with species or strains that are less well suited to a given environment. Those will die out, but was there a benefit of adding them in the first place? I'm skeptical.

Does it make your GI tract more productive, resilient, and stable to randomly consume bacteria? No. Might some species be helpful? Certainly true. Are some species undesirable? That is true as well. Does having more as opposed to the "best" species help? That is far from clear and my opinion is that it probably is not.

You hypothesized three possible benefits as if there were accepted facts. let's explore them.

1. Productivity.

If we increase the number of different bacteria species or strains in a reef tank, what, exactly, will become more productive?

Corals will grow faster?
Fish will grow faster?
Ammonia will be taken up faster?

Take your pick what you intend and we can discuss further, but I consider it far fetched to make those specific claims.

2. Resilience.

Resilience to what?
Coral bleaching?
Low O2?
Excessive heat?
Bacterial pathogens?
Viruses?

It might help with one or more of these, and it might make them worse.

3. Stability

What sort of stability?

 

[LARedstickreefer]

I'm surprised you have anything in your sump after using Vibrant, it'll eat away at your cheato too. Explains pods disappearing. Your urchins will all algae except bubble algae. You might consider a small rabbitfish or foxface they'll decimate your bubble algae. Some say emerald crabs will too, but the only luck I've had is w/Rabbitfish-Foxface.

Vibrant is probably that stuff you pour into your septic tank to eat “stuff” so it doesn’t fill up as fast. Probably the same stuff that water treatment plants use for the brown water as well. I’ve read a lot of people losing corals to this stuff.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Not necessary, for sure in a healthy tank, but is it useful? Corals eat bacteria, right? Bacteria eat phosphate. Maybe having more bacteria than usual could help feed corals instead of target feeding them stuff that’s going to wind up in your skimmer?

If you provide bacteria as filter feeder food, that's great.

I dosed vinegar largely for that reason.