Color LEDs

[Liquid360]

I completely agree with you. Thanks.


N8/Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Liquid360]

From what I see the future is in multichip LED arrays and not "full spectrum"


N8/Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Swine]

Well the point of the multi chip is to get the full spectrum by blending lots of lights under one lense. So I would tend to agree with that. but everyone wants customizability as an option to get exactly the combination of colors we want. So once they get the technology there is agree 100%

sent from my phone.

 

[Liquid360]

I guess I just love my lights as much as anyone here.... Not a chance a DIY could make a fixture like the razor... One big huge thin 160w aluminum heat sink.

N8/Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Liquid360]

I guess I just love my lights as much as anyone here.... Not a chance a DIY could make a fixture like the razor... One big huge thin 160w aluminum heat sink. Measured with an apogee par meter at 600 top to 350 at sand

N8/Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


N8/Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Swine]

For simplicity and aesthetics I would love more than anything to have something like the razer. Im just a control freak about adjusting my LEDs and having the option of changing it instead of buying a new $500 fixture. Just if I had a cnc machine then I'd have the perfect light done DIY. Just would probabably cost more than store bought haha...

I'm in the process of hiding all the wires. If you look at my tank build it looks like crap and a death trap all around the tank. but now I'm happy with the placement and light configuration. Haha

sent from my phone.

 

[Liquid360]

I understand. We all must prioritize. I placed aesthetics above control. I can control temp which was all I wanted along with the ability to program temp and power at 6 time points per 24/hr period. But I totally get where you're coming from!

For simplicity and aesthetics I would love more than anything to have something like the razer. Im just a control freak about adjusting my LEDs and having the option of changing it instead of buying a new $500 fixture. Just if I had a cnc machine then I'd have the perfect light done DIY. Just would probabably cost more than store bought haha...

I'm in the process of hiding all the wires. If you look at my tank build it looks like crap and a death trap all around the tank. but now I'm happy with the placement and light configuration. Haha

sent from my phone.

N8/Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Dave A]

The color is a marketing thing. White light is made up of all colors in equal measure. Intensity means a great deal more than color when speaking of photosynthetic lighting.

It just irks me when posts are made stating opinions as facts.

The hipocrasy here is mind-boggling... :doh:
That first post shows a complete lack of understanding of what white light is. That isn't meant as an insult, we all have our areas of expertise and there are plenty of things that each of us does not know. It irks me that it was stated as fact :wink:

Please answer my question concerning the make up of white light and then explain why the need for the colors...

I didn't see an actual question, but I think I understand what you are asking. Let's start with some basics. Light comes in different "colors," white is not a color. White is what our eye interprets when it is presented with a mix of different colors. White does not have to include all colors, just enough to make our eyes, and our brains, decide to interpret it as white, instead of a mix of individual colors. The visible spectrum is divided into 7 colors. Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Indigo (Royal Blue) and Violet (Roy G. Biv). This is further divided into wavelengths, measured in nanometers (nm), the same way that sound is divided into frequencies that are measured in hertz, kilohertz, etc. The visible spectrum is between 400nm and 700nm, light at wavelengths below 400nm is ultraviolet (UV) and light above 700nm is infrared (IR), we can't see UV or IR light because they are outside the "visible" spectrum.
The sun provides every wavelength in the visible spectrum, along with enough UV to give us a sunburn and enough IR to make us feel warmth. There is no LED that c
can come close to this, there is no single T-5 that can come close either. A MH lamp can produce a fairly complete visible spectrum but there is no bulb that can produce the various wavelengths in the same proportions that the sun produces. The best we can do is combine different LEDs and/or T5s (or supplement MH) to try to come as close to natural sunlight as possible.
Color temperature, measured in Kelvin (K) is a way to compare different "white" lights, a warm light will have more red or orange and may be measured as 2000-3500K, a white light that contains more of the blue wavelengths could be 6500-20000K. This says nothing about which wavelengths are actually present, only what the "average" of those wavelengths looks like to us. For reference, the color temperature of sunlight varies a little based on the sun's position relative to the observer, but full daylight is in the range of 5500-6000k.
Does "white" light contain all colors? No, and heres an example. You are looking at a screen (monitor, phone, etc) right now as you read this, there are places on that screen that appear white but that screen is made up entirely of tiny dots that are either red, green or blue and are very narrow bands of wavelengths for each of those colors. Still, your eye can interpret thousands of different colors on that screen, depending on how those few wavelengths are combined. There is no 575nm yellow produce by the screen, but still, your eye "sees" yellow because the correct ratio of green and red has fooled your eye. So, is "white light made up of all colors in equal measure?" No, few sources actually include all colors and even the sun doesn't supply all colors equally.
Photosynthetic zooxanthellae can not be fooled, they need specific wavelengths. If you look at the sun through a prism you see a rainbow, if you look at an cool white LED through that prism you'll see a narrow band of indigo, a space, and some green and yellow. No violet, no blue, no red and, if your lucky, maybe a hint of orange. Different pigments exist in the zooxanthellae and if a certain pigment is able to use only violet or red light, than the cool white LED is going to be useless to that pigment. There is very little guesswork involved in knowing which pigments are commonly found in corals or which wavelengths they require. The research has been done already, you just need to look it up. I won't go into too much detail here but the short version is "lots of violet, lots of indigo (especially the lower wavelengths), some blue and a few select wavelengths of yellow, orange and red." Yes, green is absent from the list. If you want healthy, thriving corals you need to supply ALL the wavelengths that are required by your corals.
You mentioned a few of the popular fixture manufacturers and the idea to ask their tech department why they use the LEDs that are in their fixtures. That's a good start, but why not ask about the LEDs they chose not to use? The honest tech department will probably tell you to ask the accounting department. I'm sure all these companies could produce better fixtures than they already make if the accountants didn't get involved. In the mean time, a DIYer doesn't have to answer to any bean counter (other than a spouse) and is free to do all the research they want and build what they think will work. They won't have access to a lab full of test equipment but they also don't have to pay the R&D people and the board of director's saleries before the first unit is sold.
You also mentioned that a Razor "PAR'd" with a 400w MH. Funny you should pick that fixture, I spent 6-8 months researching and building my fixture, the Razor came out shortly after I finished it. The 16000K razor uses an assortment of LEDs that is very similar to my fixture. I still like mine better, but it's nice to see that manufacturers are catching up with DIY. I also don't really care how much PAR a fixture has. without spectrum, PAR is not very useful. Technically, PAR without spectrum, is a more useful measurement than lumens in the same way that kilometers is a more useful measurement than miles, they both quantify brightenss without any regard to the usefulness of the spectrum. Further, the toy PAR meters used in the hobby are incredibly insensitive below 500nm, exactly the part of the spectrum that matters the most, but they are overly sensitive to light in the 525-575nm range which is of little use in photosynthesis. I could build you a light that looks white and makes more PAR than a 400w MH but does not support photosynthesis.

 

[Dave A]

LOL, you posted a few times while I was typing all that. No, I couldn't make my housing as thin and attractive as the Razor. But I can make it 41" long to better cover my 48" tank and use more emitters so it is even more powerful. I can also build it so that it plugs into my Reef Angel for infinite control of intensity on it's 4 channels and set it so the sunrise and sunset are in the shape of a parabola that matches the actual rise and set of the sun over the entire day. It cost me a little more than the price of a 27" Razor to get the coverage of 2 20" Raxors, and that includes the module to hook it up to the Reef Angel.

 

[GHill762]

The hipocrasy here is mind-boggling... :doh:
That first post shows a complete lack of understanding of what white light is. That isn't meant as an insult, we all have our areas of expertise and there are plenty of things that each of us does not know. It irks me that it was stated as fact :wink:
I didn't see an actual question, but I think I understand what you are asking. Let's start with some basics. Light comes in different "colors," white is not a color. White is what our eye interprets when it is presented with a mix of different colors. White does not have to include all colors, just enough to make our eyes, and our brains, decide to interpret it as white, instead of a mix of individual colors. The visible spectrum is divided into 7 colors. Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Indigo (Royal Blue) and Violet (Roy G. Biv). This is further divided into wavelengths, measured in nanometers (nm), the same way that sound is divided into frequencies that are measured in hertz, kilohertz, etc. The visible spectrum is between 400nm and 700nm, light at wavelengths below 400nm is ultraviolet (UV) and light above 700nm is infrared (IR), we can't see UV or IR light because they are outside the "visible" spectrum.
The sun provides every wavelength in the visible spectrum, along with enough UV to give us a sunburn and enough IR to make us feel warmth. There is no LED that c
can come close to this, there is no single T-5 that can come close either. A MH lamp can produce a fairly complete visible spectrum but there is no bulb that can produce the various wavelengths in the same proportions that the sun produces. The best we can do is combine different LEDs and/or T5s (or supplement MH) to try to come as close to natural sunlight as possible.
Color temperature, measured in Kelvin (K) is a way to compare different "white" lights, a warm light will have more red or orange and may be measured as 2000-3500K, a white light that contains more of the blue wavelengths could be 6500-20000K. This says nothing about which wavelengths are actually present, only what the "average" of those wavelengths looks like to us. For reference, the color temperature of sunlight varies a little based on the sun's position relative to the observer, but full daylight is in the range of 5500-6000k.
Does "white" light contain all colors? No, and heres an example. You are looking at a screen (monitor, phone, etc) right now as you read this, there are places on that screen that appear white but that screen is made up entirely of tiny dots that are either red, green or blue and are very narrow bands of wavelengths for each of those colors. Still, your eye can interpret thousands of different colors on that screen, depending on how those few wavelengths are combined. There is no 575nm yellow produce by the screen, but still, your eye "sees" yellow because the correct ratio of green and red has fooled your eye. So, is "white light made up of all colors in equal measure?" No, few sources actually include all colors and even the sun doesn't supply all colors equally.
Photosynthetic zooxanthellae can not be fooled, they need specific wavelengths. If you look at the sun through a prism you see a rainbow, if you look at an cool white LED through that prism you'll see a narrow band of indigo, a space, and some green and yellow. No violet, no blue, no red and, if your lucky, maybe a hint of orange. Different pigments exist in the zooxanthellae and if a certain pigment is able to use only violet or red light, than the cool white LED is going to be useless to that pigment. There is very little guesswork involved in knowing which pigments are commonly found in corals or which wavelengths they require. The research has been done already, you just need to look it up. I won't go into too much detail here but the short version is "lots of violet, lots of indigo (especially the lower wavelengths), some blue and a few select wavelengths of yellow, orange and red." Yes, green is absent from the list. If you want healthy, thriving corals you need to supply ALL the wavelengths that are required by your corals.
You mentioned a few of the popular fixture manufacturers and the idea to ask their tech department why they use the LEDs that are in their fixtures. That's a good start, but why not ask about the LEDs they chose not to use? The honest tech department will probably tell you to ask the accounting department. I'm sure all these companies could produce better fixtures than they already make if the accountants didn't get involved. In the mean time, a DIYer doesn't have to answer to any bean counter (other than a spouse) and is free to do all the research they want and build what they think will work. They won't have access to a lab full of test equipment but they also don't have to pay the R&D people and the board of director's saleries before the first unit is sold.
You also mentioned that a Razor "PAR'd" with a 400w MH. Funny you should pick that fixture, I spent 6-8 months researching and building my fixture, the Razor came out shortly after I finished it. The 16000K razor uses an assortment of LEDs that is very similar to my fixture. I still like mine better, but it's nice to see that manufacturers are catching up with DIY. I also don't really care how much PAR a fixture has. without spectrum, PAR is not very useful. Technically, PAR without spectrum, is a more useful measurement than lumens in the same way that kilometers is a more useful measurement than miles, they both quantify brightenss without any regard to the usefulness of the spectrum. Further, the toy PAR meters used in the hobby are incredibly insensitive below 500nm, exactly the part of the spectrum that matters the most, but they are overly sensitive to light in the 525-575nm range which is of little use in photosynthesis. I could build you a light that looks white and makes more PAR than a 400w MH but does not support photosynthesis.

:clap2:

Sent Via the R2R Forum APP

 

[Liquid360]

Presently, there are two approaches to creating white light.

Mixed-color white light: One approach is to mix the light from several colored LEDs (Figure 4) to create a spectral power distribution that appears white. Similarly, so-called tri-phosphor fluorescent lamps use three phosphors, each emitting a relatively narrow spectrum of blue, green or red light upon receiving ultraviolet radiation from the mercury arc in the lamp tube. By locating red, green and blue LEDs adjacent to one another, and properly mixing the amount of their output (Zhao et al. 2002), the resulting light is white in appearance.

Figure 4. Spectral power distributions of several types of LEDs.

Phosphor-converted white light: Another approach to generating white light is by use of phosphors together with a short-wavelength LED. For example, when one phosphor material used in LEDs is illuminated by blue light, it emits yellow light having a fairly broad spectral power distribution. By incorporating the phosphor in the body of a blue LED with a peak wavelength around 450 to 470 nanometers, some of the blue light will be converted to yellow light by the phosphor. The remaining blue light, when mixed with the yellow light, results in white light. New phosphors are being developed to improve color rendering as shown in Figure 5.

Figure 5. Spectral power distributions of early phosphor-based white LEDs (left), and white LEDs using more recently developed phosphors (right) with increased output between 600 and 650 nanometers.

 

[Liquid360]

The pompous arrogant jack assery that goes on when it comes to DIY LEDs stuns me. In every other topic, without exception, it's easy to share polite ideas or opinions. Obviously you are far more innovative and knowledgable than a company like kessil and their $50 million R & D dept. I'm certainly tuned in lol.


N8/Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[GHill762]

You're the only one in this thread acting like a pompous jack...

Sent Via the R2R Forum APP

 

[Liquid360]

I'm sorry you feel that way.

You're the only one in this thread acting like a pompous jack...

Sent Via the R2R Forum APP

N8/Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Swine]

The pompous arrogant jack assery that goes on when it comes to DIY LEDs stuns me. In every other topic, without exception, it's easy to share polite ideas or opinions. Obviously you are far more innovative and knowledgable than a company like kessil and their $50 million R & D dept. I'm certainly tuned in lol.


N8/Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You were the one that was so quick to shoot down assumptions and. ow you're assuming they have a $50 million r&d department? like I stated before. kessil and other companies probably have the perfect light made already but it is not cost effective and much more money can be made with "old" technology. Is apple going to release the iPhone 8 before the 5 if their 5 is already leaps and bounds better than competitors? I understand this analogy does not directly translate to DIY since DIY cell phones are far from the rage. But you get it... I think..
keep in mind businesses don't always have the customer in their best interest.. even the engineers in those businesses are saying "no! we can make it better!"

It seems that you are being cranky because you do not wish to admit that you were incorrect in what you initially stated... I don't get it.

You're the only one in this thread acting like a pompous jack...

Sent Via the R2R Forum APP

He seriously is...



sent from my phone.

 

[dwilliams87]

Dave A - great write up. You hit the nail on the head.

Sent Via the R2R Forum APP

 

[Liquid360]

I've got zero problem stating my mistakes... like posting on this thread. If I could take it back I would. My initial statement that white light is made of all spectrums is true. I ask this earnestly, please send me a link to anything that says otherwise. I'm not an electrical engineer. I've got little idea what I'm talking about. I just don't respond well to being talked down to. If my perception was wrong I apologize. Kessil is a subsidiary of a larger company, DiCon. Their R&D practices are widely known.

You were the one that was so quick to shoot down assumptions and. ow you're assuming they have a $50 million r&d department? like I stated before. kessil and other companies probably have the perfect light made already but it is not cost effective and much more money can be made with "old" technology. Is apple going to release the iPhone 8 before the 5 if their 5 is already leaps and bounds better than competitors? I understand this analogy does not directly translate to DIY since DIY cell phones are far from the rage. But you get it... I think..
keep in mind businesses don't always have the customer in their best interest.. even the engineers in those businesses are saying "no! we can make it better!"

It seems that you are being cranky because you do not wish to admit that you were incorrect in what you initially stated... I don't get it.



He seriously is...



sent from my phone.

N8/Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Liquid360]

How about everyone goes back to the initial posting and ill quietly, or not so quietly, leave.


N8/Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Dave A]

Thank you for posting the spectrographs that support my previous posts. It's clearly copy-and-paste, so I don't have any idea what the level of understanding might be. The first spectrograph is not truly an example of what they are calling "mixed color white light" but it works for illustrative purposes. It is actually taken from the data sheet thowing the output of a number of different colored LEDs within one product line, it clearly shows the very narrow output of each LED with the blue line representing the 450-460nm output of their RB LED and additional colored lines to represent each of the other LEDs in that series. As you can see, this is a number of individual peaks with significant voids between them. A spectrograph of white light that is "all colors in equal measure" would be a straight horizontal line at 1.0 that goes from below 400nm to above 700nm.
One could make light that appears white to the human eye by combining just a few of these emitters, but that would certainly not include "all colors in equal measure," in fact it would include relatively little of the visible spectrum.
If you're intent is to show that idea of using multiple LEDs to make a full spectrum is inherently flawed, then you are absolutely correct.

The second set of spectrograph is a good example of why "white" LEDs alone are no better. The red line on the left is claimed to be an older LED, the reality is that it has a broader spectrum than a typical cool white LED which, as I mentioned before, it has a narrow blue peak and some green and yellow light with no violet, blue or red and only a hint of orange at best. The LED in this case is probably a neutral white, it has more output in the red end of the spectrum than a cool white, providing decent light up to around 650nm. (Hint; your best bet is to ignore any part of the graph below about 0.4, the quantity of light below this point is relatively insignificant) I have no idea what the improvement is supposed to be in the "newer" LED represented by the blue line, it has higher output in the 600-620nm range but less output between 485 and 510nm. It's still a good neutral white but it can't stand on it's own any more than the "old version" to the left of it. Both are severely lacking in violet output (400-430nm), both show a massive drop off in blue/cyan output (470-510nm) and they could both use a little more deep red (>650nm). All of these wavelengths are known to be used by most of the photosynthetic pigments in our corals. I would use either of these LEDs in a DIY build, but not without the addition of violet, blue and red LEDs and also additional RB leds, ideally, the additional RB would be below 450nm to help fill the gap between the violets and the existing peak at 455nm.
I don't know which Razor you have, but both the 10000K and 16000K include a mix of cool white 8000K and warm white 3000K. The LED above is between these, probably around 5000K. You'll also notice that your Razor also includes "super actinic 410-420nm" (AKA violet), "blue 465-485nm" and "royal blue 450-465nm." This is almost exactly to what I said needed to be added. When I built my fixture I used a mix of 450-465nm RB and 440-450nm RB, I used 10 of each while the Razor M16000 uses only 12 of the former. This gives me broader spectrum than the Razor and 2/3 more of it. I used 10 blues of similar spectrum to those used in the Razor, the Razor has 6, again, I used 2/3 more. The Razor has 6 410-420nm violets, I used 10 of the same ones, 2/3 more. The Razor has 6 3000K warm whites, I have 10 2800K whites. The Razor uses 6 8000K cool whites, I used 10 5000K neutral whites, I also added a few 660nm deep reds. As you can see, the Razor is very similar to what I built, mine has the same ratios of each color with the biggest difference being that I designed in a broader range of RB, I used NWs instead of CWs which also offer broader spectrum and I added deep reds. I think I already mentioned that I finished mine around the time that the Razor hit the market and that I did not see the specs for the Razor until after my light was mounted over my tank. My light uses almost the same combination of emitters that the 27" M16000 used, I just have 2/3 more of them and cover a larger area. My warmer WW and my NW instead of CW give me about 14000K, which is just what I had wanted. Don't get too cocky, I pretty much built a Razor before Maxspect did, and I did it with much more control and 2/3 bigger for about $550. That slim housing is sweet, but I'll take my fixture over it anyday.

BTW, where'd you see that Kessil has a $50M R&D department? Kessil is a division of DICon Fiberoptics, a company with $6M in revenue. A $50M R&D department seems like a lot for a division of a company that only has $6M in revenue.

 

[gmoney243]

Did someone really just say the iphome 5 was leaps and.bounds better? Dud i phone sux u couldnt give me one haha. Iphone fight!!!

Seriously tho who cares about what you par is. This is a big problem with leds. Using a standard apogee par meter if u.match par with your old halide you will most likely fry ur corals or at the least they wont look as good. Everyone i have seen or talked to running leds and their tank is gorgeous is running them very low. Including myself over a year of running leds and even sps dont look as good when turned up.

Plain and simple rb/cw grows corals.just finee it has all the spectrum needed to grow corals because yes white leds are full spectrum. U can go look up data sheets to show this. But it also shows they are very low ammounts and this causes lack of color in thise spectrum. The reason for color leds is simply to enhance those pigments so they pop more to our eyes. Leds have very high peaks in a narrow range so more color leas in different nm ranges enhances those pigments more and makes them pop. I can tell.you from seeing in person no rb/cw combo looks as good as a.so called full spectrum running those extra colors. I am highly impressed with the new radions color and what they do to corals as well as the diy full spectrum i have seen all blow away any rb/cw combo ive personally seen. No i havent seen them all but enough to know theres a big difference.