Fish disease on the rise?

[atoll]

It's my understanding that the Vortex Diatom Filter is not really suitable for continuous use. I saw @robert say that he uses a "slightly modified Hayward EC40 Perflex Extended-Cycle D.E. Pool Filter." Perhaps he can elaborate on that modification. I use small Marineland Polishing filters (with DE) for water clarity purposes, and every couple of days I have to clean & recharge them. Only takes 10 minutes or so (per filter), but it is one more thing I have to do manually. So, I'm wondering how much maintenance is required to maintain a large D.E. Pool Filter? Can I ever go on vacation again if I'm counting on it to continuously siphon free swimming parasites out of the water??

I understand the concept of using a Diatom Filter and/or UV sterilizer for dilution purposes. I get that fish have an immune system, and there are several techniques you can use to make it more robust. And this article talks about using H2O2 to treat velvet (oxydators utilize H2O2): http://www.academia.edu/23793309/Th...n_the_Pacific_Threadfin_Polydactylus_sexfilis

However, several questions remain inside my head:

1. Just how practical is it for a novice hobbyist to adopt these practices? Because the oxydator/diatom filter really needs to be in place before any fish are added; installed as part of the initial build would be ideal.
2. What benefit does a diatom filter provide for fish afflicted by a parasite or worm with a direct life cycle? Or a bacterial disease? Any pathogen which lives, feeds and reproduces directly on the fish (no encysted stage)...
3. How much maintenance is required to maintain these tools? Do you need to keep a backup on hand in case it ever breaks? What happens if you turn it off for a few days or even 1-2 weeks to go on vacation?
4. Do I just install an oxydator and/or diatom filter, and that's it?? I can then start dropping fish right into my DT without ever having to QT? Are there any missing pieces to the puzzle that we need to know about? Other techniques you all are using that will increase the chances of never seeing a disease on any fish??

There are a couple of long running threads on Oxydator's their use benefits where to place and maintenance of which there is little required.
I describe the use of Oxydators as putting an oxygen mask on the fish which I find very beneficial esp during the initial settling in period.

 

[Feet4Fish]

@Paul B Have I ever backhanded your experience??

See @robert, this is why I have a hard time taking you seriously. If you knew anything about my interactions with Paul, you would know that I have great respect for him and his methods. Sure, we disagree on a lot but we do so in a respectful manner. With you, on the other hand, it's always hostility, hurling insults, etc. Even when I extend an olive branch.

Humble, I think if you were here, you would try to slap me silly.

But if I had to leave my tank with anybody for an extended time it would be you.

I have another idea because I am really trying to help people keep fish with no diseases no matter what system you use. I am sorry, I have to use the "N" word. Noobs. For you noobs, a diatom filter is just a canister filter that uses diatom powder in it to filter the water. It is nothing magical. The powder is composed of dead diatoms that are full of holes so the filtration is about the best there is. The filters are made by Vortex and others and are about $125.00 plus the powder that you can get in a swimming pool supplier on Amazon for a tenth of the cost Vortex charges for it. You can not use food grade diatom powder.

But parasites are much larger than the pores in a diatom filter so they get trapped and then you backflush the thing and add more powder. The filter is not designed to be used constantly.

But it is great if for instance you have some new fish and you want to quarantine them or just observe them for a few days before you add them. If you run a diatom filter on their tank, any parasites in the water and the ones that come off the fish to reproduce will be sucked into the diatom filter so they can not re infect the fish.
If I bought a fish with parasites and I wanted to cure it. I may put it in a hospital tank with a diatom filter and it would be cured very fast as I have done it dozens of times. No, it is not a magic bullet but it will remove parasites, in a kind of bare tank in no time so it is a tool, not a panacea.
It will not remove any medications so copper can be used if you like.

Here is a picture of a very Buff Male Model holding a Diatom filter. I use it on my reef a few times a year because it is very powerful and I like to clean out the pores in the rocks and stir up my gravel. I use a reverse undergravel filter. (OK stop laughing now).

You do not want to run it to long in a reef because it will remove all the microscope food and pods that feed the fish and corals. But if used correctly, it is a fantastic tool. I have been using them almost fifty years. They are not built very well so I found a model that is much better that I use, but I would have to find the link. If you have any questions, let me know.

Humble, see, I wrote that without mentioning anything controversial and I even think you would agree with it.

[/QUOTE]

I would love to know more about your reverse undergravel filter. Looking to set up a plenum type set up to enhance filtering capabilities of my sand bed and thinking about sucking that water in the plenum up to my over flow to then be filtered out. Looking for as much info as I can find. Thanks! BTW ordered your book off amazon!

 

[ReefWithCare]

I am.in the UK and buy seven seas fish oil with omega 3. I tend to defrost about 3 days worth of mixed food enough to feed 4 times a day to which I will add 5mil of the oil. Reglar stiring the mix and again before each feeding. This allows the maxium amount of time for the oil to soak into the food. Unless using the food the mix is kept refrigerated untill used up.

Is this it?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B001...seven+seas&dpPl=1&dpID=41Djfkt3dmL&ref=plSrch

 

[atoll]

Is this it?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B001...seven+seas&dpPl=1&dpID=41Djfkt3dmL&ref=plSrch

Nope mine has no orange favouring. Not sure I have a pic of itbon my phone but I will see if I can find one or download one.

 

[atoll]

This is the new one with omega 3

 

[MrsBugmaster]

Nope mine has no orange favouring. Not sure I have a pic of itbon my phone but I will see if I can find one or download one.

The one you posted is cod liver oil, so basically any human grade fish liquid would probably work? Does it have to be cod liver oil? But no flavored ones.

 

[atoll]

The one you posted is cod liver oil, so basically any human grade fish liquid would probably work? Does it have to be cod liver oil? But no flavored ones.

Sorry the last pic I posted was the wrong as its the orange flavoured one. Mine has fish oils and cod liver oil but dont know at what ratio.

 

[NEAS]

I’m curious if this might be the case. I have in the last 1 1/2 years got back into the hobby after about a 40 year break. Yes, definitely a lot of things have changed for the better. But back then I had what was concidered a big tank of 275 gal. It was all started with live rock, cycled, fish added and soft corals too.
Not one fish added to the tank was quarantined in the 6 years I kept it and the same for any corals added. I lost not one fish to disease, except a couple to disagreements! There was no internet back then or mobile phones. So, communication was not very good as compared to these times. Perhaps it’s because it’s more popular to keep reef and marine tanks now than back then. I’m not so sure that I was just lucky back then.
Anyone else have some thoughts

I have been a marine hobbyist and professional for over 40 years. It is very rare that I contribute to forums. I teach aquarium science at a local university and have owned a successful retail/service company for over 35 years. My company is a high end retailer and cater to higher end customers and businesses. It is imperative that we provide our clientele healthy specimens. We quarantine our fish for over three weeks after arrival. It has taken years to come up with a system of quarantine that works.
The comment made about the industry not caring about fish health should not be a blank statement. There are only two wholesalers in the country that I deal with. I have personally toured these facilities and can testify these facilities are spotless, well maintained and do everything possible to provide a healthy specimen. Yes, indeed there are more "low ball" distributors out there than good. BUT, these companies are no different than a lot of hobbyists that demand low prices. High quality means higher prices. Unfortunately, I don't see how we can change this attitude of treating these beautiful animals as a commodity. Collectors/shippers, wholesalers and retailers all share the blame as well as the consumer.
Unfortunately, with the pressure on the hobby continuing on strong from environmental groups such as PETA, Snorkel Bob etc. diseased fish is not the only thing this hobby needs to worry about .
If this industry wants to survive, there needs to be a conscious change in the behavior from everyone involved. I feel this starts with the consumer demanding high quality and not "Cheap" fish.

 

[Paul B]

or hell write a book and charge for it. I'll happily buy it.

I did. Did you buy it yet?

Paul, I am happy to fund the achilles tang for this purpose. I can paypal you the money, just let me know when.

Ford old Buddy, Thank you but I can easily afford the fish. I just don't want to risk it for an experiment on the "very small" chance you may be right and I can't keep it.
I would rather test some other ich magnets to see how they fare then see if I can catch them. Achiles get a little to big for my tank and they are not easy to catch. I would imagine if I can keep other tangs, that would be sufficient then if people are not satisfied and If I have to, I will get an achiles.

It's my understanding that the Vortex Diatom Filter is not really suitable for continuous use.

It is not for a couple of reasons. First all it is such a good filter that it clogs rather quickly expecially if you stir the gravel. Second, the Vortex filters were not designed for salt water and they rust badly, the bearings corrode and the thing overheats. I have 5 of them. I did recently buy a new plastic powerhead to replace the original Vortex motor that doesn't get hot and can be run continousely but they still clog. You have to connect them to a sink with a hose and back flush it, then add more powder. But never open it up, that's where you have problems. Just backflush it and add more powder through the hose. I can give you detailed instructions if needed but don't follow the directions.

Or does every single fish you purchase live for 20-30 years?

Every single fish I add does not live 20-30 years unless it is a type of fish that lives that long. I lose fish for a few reasons, usually jumping out because my tank is not covered. I sometimes lost fish because I stupidly buy a fish I can't properly feed and it starves. But I never, Like never lose a fish from disease. I can't stress that enough. Not bacterial, viral or parasitic. All of my fish that don't jump out or starve from my stupidity die of old age. Every one of them and I have posted them for the 10 years I have been on this forum. I have never posted on the disease forum about a disease except pop eye or a fish being bit in half like my bluestripe pipefish was. I could not say my fish were immune if that were not true.
It seems to me, they are 100% immune, so far at least.

 

[ReefWithCare]

Link plz @Paul B [emoji385].

I think I found it but see this message:

"This product is not currently for sale"

 

[4FordFamily]

I have been a marine hobbyist and professional for over 40 years. It is very rare that I contribute to forums. I teach aquarium science at a local university and have owned a successful retail/service company for over 35 years. My company is a high end retailer and cater to higher end customers and businesses. It is imperative that we provide our clientele healthy specimens. We quarantine our fish for over three weeks after arrival. It has taken years to come up with a system of quarantine that works.
The comment made about the industry not caring about fish health should not be a blank statement. There are only two wholesalers in the country that I deal with. I have personally toured these facilities and can testify these facilities are spotless, well maintained and do everything possible to provide a healthy specimen. Yes, indeed there are more "low ball" distributors out there than good. BUT, these companies are no different than a lot of hobbyists that demand low prices. High quality means higher prices. Unfortunately, I don't see how we can change this attitude of treating these beautiful animals as a commodity. Collectors/shippers, wholesalers and retailers all share the blame as well as the consumer.
Unfortunately, with the pressure on the hobby continuing on strong from environmental groups such as PETA, Snorkel Bob etc. diseased fish is not the only thing this hobby needs to worry about .
If this industry wants to survive, there needs to be a conscious change in the behavior from everyone involved. I feel this starts with the consumer demanding high quality and not "Cheap" fish.

Well-put! Thanks for participating today for us!

 

[4FordFamily]

I did. Did you buy it yet?


Ford old Buddy, Thank you but I can easily afford the fish. I just don't want to risk it for an experiment on the "very small" chance you may be right and I can't keep it.
I would rather test some other ich magnets to see how they fare then see if I can catch them. Achiles get a little to big for my tank and they are not easy to catch. I would imagine if I can keep other tangs, that would be sufficient then if people are not satisfied and If I have to, I will get an achiles.



It is not for a couple of reasons. First all it is such a good filter that it clogs rather quickly expecially if you stir the gravel. Second, the Vortex filters were not designed for salt water and they rust badly, the bearings corrode and the thing overheats. I have 5 of them. I did recently buy a new plastic powerhead to replace the original Vortex motor that doesn't get hot and can be run continousely but they still clog. You have to connect them to a sink with a hose and back flush it, then add more powder. But never open it up, that's where you have problems. Just backflush it and add more powder through the hose. I can give you detailed instructions if needed but don't follow the directions.



Every single fish I add does not live 20-30 years unless it is a type of fish that lives that long. I lose fish for a few reasons, usually jumping out because my tank is not covered. I sometimes lost fish because I stupidly buy a fish I can't properly feed and it starves. But I never, Like never lose a fish from disease. I can't stress that enough. Not bacterial, viral or parasitic. All of my fish that don't jump out or starve from my stupidity die of old age. Every one of them and I have posted them for the 10 years I have been on this forum. I have never posted on the disease forum about a disease except pop eye or a fish being bit in half like my bluestripe pipefish was. I could not say my fish were immune if that were not true.
It seems to me, they are 100% immune, so far at least.

But if it DOES work for an achilles it instantly adds credence to what you say. I don’t mean to imply you cannot afford it, I just consider it aiding in the research and development. You don’t want to know much much money I just spent testing our new quarantine procedure out— notwithstanding the fish! I just want to better the hobby and help. This would be the ultimate test. Don’t tell me you are nervous?

I’ll help you rehome it or even take it. Then I paid for my own fish. We put our money where our mouth was and learned a lot of hard expensive lessons. I want to make sure I do the same here and help you so you can document what happened. At the end of the day you could be right. I know you’re honest enough to tell us exactly what happened, day by day, and not misrepresent anything to further your agenda/beliefs. The only “risk” for you is that you may have to admit that some species have different requirements for husbandry— and that it is relevant to which route one should choose to take. It doesn’t mean your contributions here are any less valuable or that we cannot learn a lot from your tank/experience. We can work together at this. That’s all that I propose.

 

[SteveC]

I have been a marine hobbyist and professional for over 40 years. It is very rare that I contribute to forums. I teach aquarium science at a local university and have owned a successful retail/service company for over 35 years. My company is a high end retailer and cater to higher end customers and businesses. It is imperative that we provide our clientele healthy specimens. We quarantine our fish for over three weeks after arrival. It has taken years to come up with a system of quarantine that works.
The comment made about the industry not caring about fish health should not be a blank statement. There are only two wholesalers in the country that I deal with. I have personally toured these facilities and can testify these facilities are spotless, well maintained and do everything possible to provide a healthy specimen. Yes, indeed there are more "low ball" distributors out there than good. BUT, these companies are no different than a lot of hobbyists that demand low prices. High quality means higher prices. Unfortunately, I don't see how we can change this attitude of treating these beautiful animals as a commodity. Collectors/shippers, wholesalers and retailers all share the blame as well as the consumer.
Unfortunately, with the pressure on the hobby continuing on strong from environmental groups such as PETA, Snorkel Bob etc. diseased fish is not the only thing this hobby needs to worry about .
If this industry wants to survive, there needs to be a conscious change in the behavior from everyone involved. I feel this starts with the consumer demanding high quality and not "Cheap" fish.

Thankyou, for your input. It’s good to hear from the other side.

 

[robert]

I would like to suggest an alternative test for your consideration.

Why don't you first add an acclimated black molly to you tank. An acclimated black molly, as a freshwater fish, will not have any immunity to marine ich.
If the molly gets ich - then you know that you do have ich present in the system for which your fish have developed immunity. If it doesn't get ich - then this suggests that there is no ich present in your system. If after a couple of weeks the molly remains clear, you could disturb the sand bed and see if the substrate is harboring ich in hypoxic regions.

If the molly remains clear - after some time - three to six months - that molly could be deliberately exposed to ich in someone's quarantine. If the molly gets ich, it might suggest that it did not develop enough immunity in your system to resist the parisite - but if it doesn't get ich - then something about your method imparted immunity without exposure.

Once you know the ich status of your system - you can make a decision about following up with the tang.

Just my 2 cents. I like the test - I just think we could learn more and put less at risk.

Humblefish - have you considered breeding and supplying acclimated black mollies to the hobbyists on this board - I for sure would buy them - probably a couple times a year just to know the current status of my tank.

 

[Feet4Fish]

I would like to suggest an alternative test for your consideration.

Why don't you first add an acclimated black molly to you tank. An acclimated black molly, as a freshwater fish, will not have any immunity to marine ich.
If the molly gets ich - then you know that you do have ich present in the system for which your fish have developed immunity. If it doesn't get ich - then this suggests that there is no ich present in your system. If after a couple of weeks the molly remains clear, you could disturb the sand bed and see if the substrate is harboring ich in hypoxic regions.

If the molly remains clear - after some time - three to six months - that molly could be deliberately exposed to ich in someone's quarantine. If the molly gets ich, it might suggest that it did not develop enough immunity in your system to resist the parisite - but if it doesn't get ich - then something about your method imparted immunity without exposure.

Once you know the ich status of your system - you can make a decision about following up with the tang.

Just my 2 cents. I like the test - I just think we could learn more and put less at risk.

Humblefish - have you considered breeding and supplying acclimated black mollies to the hobbyists on this board - I for sure would buy them - probably a couple times a year just to know the current status of my tank.

Seems very logical and I like the idea! No matter what style we ran a tank this litmus tear would be invaluable!

 

[Humblefish]

Humblefish - have you considered breeding and supplying acclimated black mollies to the hobbyists on this board - I for sure would buy them - probably a couple times a year just to know the current status of my tank.

I've thought about doing that, but the cost of overnight shipping would probably prevent most people from buying them from me. Unless they were piggybacked onto an order for more expensive fish.

I use them in every one of my retail + conditioning tanks to ensure no diseases slip through the cracks. Interestingly, I still have to deworm them (using fenbendazole) whilst they are still in FW because SW doesn't eliminate any internal FW pathogens.

 

[Paul B]

You don’t want to know much much money I just spent testing our new quarantine procedure out—

One year owning my boat costs more than my 47 years in the salt water hobby. And I have had a boat since 1975.

Don’t tell me you are nervous?

There have been times in my life when I was nervous, but none of those times had anything to do with a fish tank. I mean, It's a fish tank.

Is an achiles tang, or black mollies the only test for ich? If it is then all most people have to do is not keep those fish.

I feel my copperband is also an ich type of fish as are my clown gobies which were covered in the stuff when I bought them as were my shrimpfish.

I am waiting to see what type of tangs come into my friends store. If I get one or two I will take pictures of it before I throw it in and a few days later when it should show some type of disease.

 

[atoll]

One year owning my boat costs more than my 47 years in the salt water hobby. And I have had a boat since 1975.



There have been times in my life when I was nervous, but none of those times had anything to do with a fish tank. I mean, It's a fish tank.

Is an achiles tang, or black mollies the only test for ich? If it is then all most people have to do is not keep those fish.

I feel my copperband is also an ich type of fish as are my clown gobies which were covered in the stuff when I bought them as were my shrimpfish.

I am waiting to see what type of tangs come into my friends store. If I get one or two I will take pictures of it before I throw it in and a few days later when it should show some type of disease.

Same here Paul. Royal grammas often show itch soon after introduction into my DT but within a short period say 36 hours there is no sign and none of the other established fish show any signs of it.

 

[siggy]

I cant help to think some fish are stronger than others. I had a fish come in with Velvet (DFS) and just about wiped out the tank. By the time I got a QT running and treated, I lost all except a wrasse in the QT. I was not able to remove any B/G Chromis 6 and a Anthias, and they all survived, the Anthias in QT did not . Since that out break I have added more fish and the only loss was an addition that didn't eat and wasted away. BTW I built a fish trap to remove those survivors simply to reduce the bio-load so I can house nicer fish..... So is the velvet Parasite still present? .......I now find it interesting as I wright this, that those that remained in the display survived.

 

[4FordFamily]

One year owning my boat costs more than my 47 years in the salt water hobby. And I have had a boat since 1975.



There have been times in my life when I was nervous, but none of those times had anything to do with a fish tank. I mean, It's a fish tank.

Is an achiles tang, or black mollies the only test for ich? If it is then all most people have to do is not keep those fish.

I feel my copperband is also an ich type of fish as are my clown gobies which were covered in the stuff when I bought them as were my shrimpfish.

I am waiting to see what type of tangs come into my friends store. If I get one or two I will take pictures of it before I throw it in and a few days later when it should show some type of disease.

Several species of tang can be kept in ich management. I’ve kept copperband in ich management. I wouldn’t say it’s easy but if I can do it, anyone can — nothing special about that!

The key difference between achilles and the like and other fish is their inability to fight it off. It’s no surprise many fish show signs that’s not the test — the test is can they fight it off.

A hypothesis without testing is simply a hypothesis.

Nice boat! My best boat is in my kids’ bathtub