Fish disease on the rise?

[revhtree]

I have been a marine hobbyist and professional for over 40 years. It is very rare that I contribute to forums. I teach aquarium science at a local university and have owned a successful retail/service company for over 35 years. My company is a high end retailer and cater to higher end customers and businesses. It is imperative that we provide our clientele healthy specimens. We quarantine our fish for over three weeks after arrival. It has taken years to come up with a system of quarantine that works.
The comment made about the industry not caring about fish health should not be a blank statement. There are only two wholesalers in the country that I deal with. I have personally toured these facilities and can testify these facilities are spotless, well maintained and do everything possible to provide a healthy specimen. Yes, indeed there are more "low ball" distributors out there than good. BUT, these companies are no different than a lot of hobbyists that demand low prices. High quality means higher prices. Unfortunately, I don't see how we can change this attitude of treating these beautiful animals as a commodity. Collectors/shippers, wholesalers and retailers all share the blame as well as the consumer.
Unfortunately, with the pressure on the hobby continuing on strong from environmental groups such as PETA, Snorkel Bob etc. diseased fish is not the only thing this hobby needs to worry about .
If this industry wants to survive, there needs to be a conscious change in the behavior from everyone involved. I feel this starts with the consumer demanding high quality and not "Cheap" fish.

Welcome to R2R. I agree and I for one am willing to pay a premium for fish I know are disease free.

 

[Paul B]

Ford, so if I can keep any fish with ich in my tank except an achiles tang, I still think that would be a plus, especially since I don't want an achilles tang.

 

[atoll]

Ford, so if I can keep any fish with ich in my tank except an achiles tang, I still think that would be a plus, especially since I don't want an achilles tang.

Although a nice fish tangs esp the Achilles IMO they are boring fish plus I do feel you need a very large tank to do them justice. I understand many people love their Tangs and won't find them boring however. I have kept a number of tangs inc yellow purple regal etc in the past without issues but they all eventually outgrew their quarters and I moved them on and I don't really care for doing that. My regal angel was a most beautiful fish but even that outgrew my 100 gallon.

 

[Paul B]

When I started I went for the brightest, most colorful fish there was like French Angels, Moorish Idols, Lipstick tangs etc. After fifty years of diving I have come to think of tangs and angelfish as just to common. You have to swim through fifty thousand tangs to get to the interesting stuff like these fish that I look for. Look at the colors on that first one, the clingfish. They really Pop, don't they?

 

[Lowell Lemon]

@HotRocks , @Humblefish , @4FordFamily ,
Please share your sources of fish with us. Where are you purchasing fish from?

While I have no current knowledge of the distribution system in the past I would purchase in LC (2000lb.) containers at a time of both fish, inverts and live rock. I would often spend all night aclimatating the large shipments to the various holding systems. I often had no losses even after months of holding the fish for sale to local aquarium stores and retail customers. That was then and your experience is now. In an effort to understand the differences your supply chain would be helpful to understand. So please share who you buy from and your impressions of results. PM me if you do not want to publicly discuss you impressions.

I would like to move back to offering natural fresh and saltwater aquariums and related items on a retail basis to be a kind of fun retirement plan. Not sure how that would work out. But I need something to occupy myself with when I retire from the construction industry I am in now. It is getting harder to help carry stone slabs up to 1000lbs into customers homes. I am not as interested in polishing those rascals anymore as well!

I am not sure why all the resistance to proper use of mechanical, biological , and U.V. and other methods for success? The largest problem I have seen is the see saw swings in water quality of QT systems that people try to manage as the run back and forth from work to home. I have watched as too many people on these threads gut their tanks to go fallow to only have the same repeted results of a fish disease somehow getting into both the QT system and then to the DT tank. It causes all of us much pain. So why discount other methods that work? I am not suggesting something that is anymore costly than all the hundreds of fish you all have lost or treated in the last couple of years (your words not mine).

One of the biggest problems with prophylactic treatment is the difficulty in maintaining water quality during treatment due to the fact that many if not most of the treatment protocols destroy any meaningful biological filtration. This places an even further burden on the fish as the ammonia level skyrockets. This often happens when the aquarist is at work and they return home to dead fish. It is difficult to treat a fish unless you are available to monitor water conditions all day and be ready to intervene at a moments notice with a water change and a correct dose of the medications to prevent a therapeutic see saw. This is why we are seeing so many failures in prophylactic treatment on this site. All you have to do is go back and read all the interventions that have resulted in fish loss. We all agree we need more success to advance the hobby than what we are seeing on these pages. I believe that success has to be easy-to-use in an effort to support people with busy lives. It must be easily managed to provide success or you increase the loss rate in both the fish and aquarist in the process. ;Nailbiting

 

[4FordFamily]

@HotRocks , @Humblefish , @4FordFamily ,
Please share your sources of fish with us. Where are you purchasing fish from?

While I have no current knowledge of the distribution system in the past I would purchase in LC (2000lb.) containers at a time of both fish, inverts and live rock. I would often spend all night aclimatating the large shipments to the various holding systems. I often had no losses even after months of holding the fish for sale to local aquarium stores and retail customers. That was then and your experience is now. In an effort to understand the differences your supply chain would be helpful to understand. So please share who you buy from and your impressions of results.

I would like to move back to offering natural fresh and saltwater aquariums and related items on a retail basis to be a kind of fun retirement plan. Not sure how that would work out. But I need something to occupy myself with when I retire from the construction industry I am in now. It is getting harder to help carry stone slabs up to 1000lbs into customers homes. I am not as interested in polishing those rascals anymore as well!

I am not sure why all the resistance to proper use of mechanical, biological , and U.V. and other methods for success? The largest problem I have seen is the see saw swings in water quality of QT systems that people try to manage as the run back and forth from work to home. I have watched as too many people on these threads gut their tanks to go fallow to only have the same repeted results of a fish disease somehow getting into both the QT system and then to the DT tank. It causes all of us much pain. So why discount other methods that work? I am not suggesting something that is anymore costly than all the hundreds of fish you all have lost or treated in the last couple of years (your words not mine).

One of the biggest problems with prophylactic treatment is the difficulty in maintaining water quality during treatment due to the fact that many if not most of the treatment protocols destroy any meaningful biological filtration. This places an even further burden on the fish as the ammonia level skyrockets. This often happens when the aquarist is at work and they return home to dead fish. It is difficult to treat a fish unless you are available to monitor water conditions all day and be ready to intervene at a moments notice with a water change and a correct dose of the medications to prevent a therapeutic see saw. This is why we are seeing so many failures in prophylactic treatment on this site. All you have to do is go back and read all the interventions that have resulted in fish loss. We all agree we need mere success to advance the hobby than what we are seeing on these pages. I believe that success has to be easy-to-use in an effort to support people with busy lives. It must be easily managed to provide success or you increase the loss rate in both the fish and aquarist in the process. ;Nailbiting

We certainly don’t discount the use of UV, Oxydators, diatom filters, or the like. Or at least I don’t feel I/we do. I think they can be effective tools for some. An important note followed by a distinction though — there are complexities and considerations in using any of them. For UV it’s maintenance, bulb replacement, and most importantly the proper flow. For diatom filters it’s constant maintenance and cleaning, and a bit of planning regarding type/flow/location.

Most people (I am probably biased because I see the non QT fish disease issues dozens each day) read alternate methods to QT and just shortcut by tossing fish in and hoping for the best. Feeding different foods is “easy enough” but other than that it doesn’t seem like it’s adopted fully, which is why the request for a well-documented all-inclusive step by step process for setting it up and maintaining it properly from the beginning.

I’ve said it before and I will repeat it again - great nutrition is not mutually exclusive to quarantine. I think it should be present regardless of which route you take.

Our fish come from many sources but many can be traced back to Quality Marine. They supply many LFS, online retailers, etc.

We don’t have much issue with water quality and you should see how packed our 125 gallon observation tank is. In less than 30 days from shipping box to display tank. Each of our tanks was highly stocked. The game changer is Biospira. This is something we had to account for for this to work.

Regarding reinfecting, since learning the ways we can introduce parasites back to the tank (sharing nets, arms, hoses, and not running certain inverts and coral “fallow” for example) we’ve not had issue with this. It happens, and it happened to us in the past. In fact, I got lazy and sloppy and cross contaminated from quarantine tank to display tank in the past without even thinking about how easy it would be to do so by sharing a hose or equipment from infected tank to sterile display. Common sense but I didn’t consider it, I imagine I am not alone.

You do have to be intentional about not re-introducing. The hard part was working through the ways it can fail and finding ways to control for that. It’s not for everyone. But it’s worth the effort, IMO.

Our new treatment process has been, so far, 100% effective with those fish once they’re through observation. Meaning, no fish that has completed treatment has displayed symptoms. In fact, no issues have been found in observation tanks post-treatment. This is where countless hours and dollars were spent thinking, researching, planning, and testing new hypothesis came to finally yield better than expected results. We’ve only moved ~100 fish through the process successfully. It may change and further evolve, however.

That process will be released, as well as the fruits of the collective labor. @Humblefish @HotRocks and I think we’ve finally worked out a way to control for all of these diseases. Of course, it’s not perfect.

People can analyze, observe the results of our tests, test themselves, and make their determinations as to whether they feel it the best course of action.

Finally, nothing is easier for me with limited time than simply feeding my ~750 gallons of fish tanks full of the fish I always dreamed of keeping. All I have to worry about is maintenance. Quarantine properly, IE frontload the work and life is SO much easier than when I practiced “parasite management” techniques for 10+ years.

I don’t have diatom filters to rinse, I don’t have UV sterilier bulbs to replace, I don’t have to measure the flow through them and ensure everything is working properly. If the extra equipment fails I need not worry so long as I have water movement and proper temperature. Still, no parasites to worry about. It’s an insurance policy. That’s a great feeling.

Some see QT as the “more is more” mentality and “extra”. I see it as “less is more” and other than the first 30 days — its MUCH more minimalistic, in my opinion. It’s not hard to have a bin set up for running new rock/coral/inverts fallow. I have a Red Sea reefer 170 for that purpose, but a Rubbermaid bin would work just fine!

Just my opinion and .02. Thanks for the feedback and perspective

 

[Lowell Lemon]

@4FordFamily,

I think we are talking past each other instead of communicating.

I am more than willing to discuss the differing methods but I was just pointing out something that leads to success is repeatable results across the broad spectrum of aquarists. In looking for that success the greatest number of users must have the greatest success with lower failure rates. Then we have success. So the process needs to be simple and repeatable by the greatest number of users.

So let's take a look at a cost benefit analysis. Since you have the records and it is fresh data how much has it cost per fish to house, feed, and prophylacticly treat those 100 fish? How many hours do you estimate it took you to accomplish this success?

I should state that I am not against some type of QT system. But it may be possible to combine the DT with the QT system so to speak. I can comment further once you give me the cost per fish on your recent QT process.

Thanks for the conversation and I await your reply.

 

[Rython]

@HotRocks , @Humblefish , @4FordFamily ,

One of the biggest problems with prophylactic treatment is the difficulty in maintaining water quality during treatment due to the fact that many if not most of the treatment protocols destroy any meaningful biological filtration. This places an even further burden on the fish as the ammonia level skyrockets. This often happens when the aquarist is at work and they return home to dead fish. It is difficult to treat a fish unless you are available to monitor water conditions all day and be ready to intervene at a moments notice with a water change and a correct dose of the medications to prevent a therapeutic see saw. This is why we are seeing so many failures in prophylactic treatment on this site. All you have to do is go back and read all the interventions that have resulted in fish loss. We all agree we need more success to advance the hobby than what we are seeing on these pages. I believe that success has to be easy-to-use in an effort to support people with busy lives. It must be easily managed to provide success or you increase the loss rate in both the fish and aquarist in the process. ;Nailbiting

That's just not accurate. Bio-spira makes water quality a non-issue in less than a day. Multiple times over the last few months I've had up to 4 fish in a 10g tank for 14 days receiving concurrent treatment of both copper and antibiotics and never had any ammonia readings on my ammonia badges (new). These fish were introduced 1 day after the tank was set-up and the treatments began immediately, thanks to Bio-spira. I think a big problem here is some people assume that the problems with QT from years ago (sometimes just a couple of years ago) still exist. A lot of the major roadblocks have been removed - most significantly in my opinion water quality (bio-spira), copper testing precision (hanna) and copper range (chelated).

 

[Kyl]

Livestock quality has taken a nosedive imo, and I've only been in the hobby four years.

The industry doesn't care about the health of fish, just making money. Selling fish is just one means to that end.

I'd wager many LFS don't care about the livestock either, just how much money they can make off them before dying.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

That's actually not remotely accurate. Bio-spira makes water quality a non-issue in less than a day. Multiple times over the last few months I've had up to 4 fish in a 10g tank for 14 days receiving concurrent treatment of both copper and antibiotics and never had any ammonia readings on my ammonia badges (new). These fish were introduced 1 day after the tank was set-up and the treatments began immediately, thanks to Bio-spira. I think a big problem here is some people assume that the problems with QT from years ago (sometimes just a couple of years ago) still exist. A lot of the major roadblocks have been removed - most significantly in my opinion water quality (bio-spira), copper testing precision (hanna) and copper range (chelated).

This is a great point with your use of Bio-spira. There is some accuracy to the statement or the many people on the disease threads would be having more success than they are. Not meaning to be harsh but accurate in the actual assessment of success.

However the loss rates with the many people I have seen coached though the treatment process seems to indicate a high rate of failure on the users part not your part. Just saying the results are not in favor of a simple easy to use system that is repeatable by the greatest number of users.

However I just have another question. If Quality Marine is your best source of fish with the least amount of problems why not copy there success with their holding system design?

 

[4FordFamily]

@4FordFamily,

I think we are talking past each other instead of communicating.

I am more than willing to discuss the differing methods but I was just pointing out something that leads to success is repeatable results across the broad spectrum of aquarists. In looking for that success the greatest number of users must have the greatest success with lower failure rates. Then we have success. So the process needs to be simple and repeatable by the greatest number of users.

So let's take a look at a cost benefit analysis. Since you have the records and it is fresh data how much has it cost per fish to house, feed, and prophylacticly treat those 100 fish? How many hours do you estimate it took you to accomplish this success?

I should state that I am not against some type of QT system. But it may be possible to combine the DT with the QT system so to speak. I can comment further once you give me the cost per fish on your recent QT process.

Thanks for the conversation and I await your reply.

I didn't perceive our communication that way, so I apologize if you feel that way. We've not yet analyzed it that deep, but that will be to come. In truth, much of our "cost" was in the trial and error and R&D. Here's what a normal hobbyist would need to accomplish the goal small-scale:

Copper:
(2) 40B tanks ($100)
(2) HOB filters ($75)
(2) Heaters ($40)
(2) Bubblers ($30)
(2) Ammonia Alert Badges ($20)
Hanna Copper Checker ($50)
Copper Power ($20)
(2 packs) Metroplex - $15
General Cure - $15
Biospira $10

Total: $375 - $295 is reusable = $80 for each round (probably the price of one average fish)

Chloroquine Phosphate:
(2) 40B tanks ($100)
(2) HOB filters ($75)
(2) Heaters ($40)
(2) Bubblers ($30)
(2) Ammonia Alert Badges ($20)
Seachem prime ($10)
Chloroquine Phosphate (??? - hard to find and varies, using $50)
(2 packs) Metroplex - $15
General Cure - $15

Total: $355- $245 is reusable = $110 for each round (although in fairness a little CP goes a LONG way and I think I've overestimated its' price)

As far as hours, I am not sure. I am sure it is a lot more than simply dropping a fish in a tank. But years of less maintenance and worry, the front-loaded effort is worth it.

Perhaps @HotRocks can speak to that. Kyle, if you omit the two 55 gallon and two 125 gallon tanks we used for testing and just used two 40s, how much time would you say it should have taken? Anything you'd add/subtract?

 

[4FordFamily]

...Just saying the results are not in favor of a simple easy to use system that is repeatable by the greatest number of users.

However I just have another question. If Quality Marine is your best source of fish with the least amount of problems why not copy there success with their holding system design?

Regarding the emboldened, this is exactly what we've set out to do. Make this much more simple, much more streamlined, much quicker, much more precise, and put it all in one place to that it is just that - repeatable. Stay tuned

Regarding QM -- I would not say that QM is the best source necessarily, it's just what's most available to us for testing -- probably a good 80% of our fish, collectively (@HotRocks and I). Availability was the determining factor here. I cannot speak to others much, but we've had the same issues from other sources as well -- just a smaller sample size.

That's not necessarily a dig on QM -- I have heard from others that my experience with them is indicative of other suppliers, which is in line with our smaller sample size of experiences from other vendors. I can only assume that this is an industry-wide issue.

I do know that Quality Marine has an immense market share. The largest online retailers use them. A plethora of local LFS use them. They have the best selection of any wholesaler that I know of, which I think is a driving factor for this. Oh, and they're less expensive -- possibly due to economies of scale.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

I didn't perceive our communication that way, so I apologize if you feel that way. We've not yet analyzed it that deep, but that will be to come. In truth, much of our "cost" was in the trial and error and R&D. Here's what a normal hobbyist would need to accomplish the goal small-scale:

Copper:
(2) 40B tanks ($100)
(2) HOB filters ($75)
(2) Heaters ($40)
(2) Bubblers ($30)
(2) Ammonia Alert Badges ($20)
Hanna Copper Checker ($50)
Copper Power ($20)
(2 packs) Metroplex - $15
General Cure - $15
Biospira $10

Total: $375 - $295 is reusable = $80 for each round (probably the price of one average fish)

Chloroquine Phosphate:
(2) 40B tanks ($100)
(2) HOB filters ($75)
(2) Heaters ($40)
(2) Bubblers ($30)
(2) Ammonia Alert Badges ($20)
Seachem prime ($10)
Chloroquine Phosphate (??? - hard to find and varies, using $50)
(2 packs) Metroplex - $15
General Cure - $15

Total: $355- $245 is reusable = $110 for each round (although in fairness a little CP goes a LONG way and I think I've overestimated its' price)

As far as hours, I am not sure. I am sure it is a lot more than simply dropping a fish in a tank. But years of less maintenance and worry, the front-loaded effort is worth it.

Perhaps @HotRocks can speak to that. Kyle, if you omit the two 55 gallon and two 125 gallon tanks we used for testing and just used two 40s, how much time would you say it should have taken? Anything you'd add/subtract?

Thank you I will wait for Kyle to respond to have a more complete understanding of the estimated costs and time involved.

So who has provided you the best fish with the least amount if problems if not QM?

QM is on the decline if they have departed from Phil Shane's practice and policies. He did much to help me solve problems for a large number of aquarium stores and their owners.

 

[Rython]

This is a great point with your use of Bio-spira.

However the loss rates with the many people I have seen coached though the treatment process seems to indicate a high rate of failure on the users part not your part. Just saying the results are not in favor of a simple easy to use system that is repeatable by the greatest number of users.

However I just have another question. If Quality Marine is your best source of fish with the least amount of problems why not copy there success with their holding system design?

I monitor the disease forums pretty closely. I'm actually on the other side. I'm surprised by how many people save their fish. Because a lot of time by the time people post, their fish are in shockingly bad shape, they have to get them out of their DT to treat, which causes further stress and sometimes trauma, etc. So it's no surprise to me when the fish dies anyway.

It's true, there are some posts where people are asking how to treat with a fish in QT, and sometimes the fish lives, and sometimes the fish dies, but I wouldn't automatically assume that a fish that died in QT would have survived in the DT. When a fish has velvet, or a bad bacterial infection, for example, that fish might be too far gone to save. It was going to die no matter what you did. And when I see fish losses in this situation it does seem to often be one of these diseases. I've also seen enough DT wipeout threads to know that was probably a better scenario than the aquarist would have run into had he just put the fish in his DT.

As for Quality Marine, nearly all of my fish went through their distribution system and most of my fish came in diseased, so I don't assume they are highly successful at keeping fish healthy. It doesn't even make business sense that they would need to be, since fish are probably only at their facilities a couple of days. If a fish picks up a disease there, even velvet, it probably won't die until after they sell it to the retailer. I'm sure they take precuations, but i'm also sure they aren't periodically breaking down everything and sanitizing it. Without that, law of averages will ensure their system will eventually have every parasite in it.

 

[Paul B]

As we can probably agree on a wholesaler or LFS has different "problems" than a home aquarist does. We have more time and money to care for an individual fish than large tanks with multiple new species, many of which come in dead or almost dead or covered in parasites. I am sure we all have been in the stores when the guy opens the Styrofoam boxes and puts the still living fish in tanks.

I believe large systems such as those should have large diatom filters installed. They are made for swimming pools and come in various sizes. Swimming pool diatom powder is also cheap and the filters can automatically backflush when needed. Diatom powder will remove any parasite including velvet as it removes anything larger than one micron and in the relatively bare tanks of wholesalers and dealers almost all the parasites will be removed so they can't re-infect the fish.
If I get a fish that I need to cure of parasites, I put it in a bare tank, maybe use copper and quinacrine hydrochloride and run the diatom filter. When the parasites drop off, they are almost instantly removed. Then the filter is just back flushed for a couple of minutes with hot sink water ready to be used again.

Diatom powder is so common in nature that in some places it is "miles" deep.

 

[Humblefish]

I'd wager many LFS don't care about the livestock either, just how much money they can make off them before dying.

Working at a LFS wears you down, especially nowadays. Dealing with unscrupulous wholesalers; customers not listening to advice, griping about lack of selection, can buy it cheaper online, etc. I was once in a LFS where a guy picked the owner's brain for 30 minutes about a light. He let him play with the light & everything. When he finally asked the guy if he wanted to buy one, the guy replied that he saw it for $20 cheaper on Amazon and left.

A LFS owner I know once put it best: "This hobby will survive even if every LFS in the world goes out of business. However, the overall popularity of the hobby will diminish because there will be no showplaces left to draw newbies in. Keeping saltwater tanks will strictly be a fringe sorta thing."

 

[HotRocks]

Thank you I will wait for Kyle to respond to have a more complete understanding of the estimated costs and time involved.

So who has provided you the best fish with the least amount if problems if not QM?

QM is on the decline if they have departed from Phil Shane's practice and policies. He did much to help me solve problems for a large number of aquarium stores and their owners.

@Lowell Lemon, thanks for the discussion.

To put an actual cost per fish associated with the QT would be pretty tough to do when treating at large scale. We are using meds that were purchased in bulk, not your average on the shelf or from amazon price. We are also using a couple large tanks due to the larger fish for Jason's larger system. I can speak more about the timeframe. The costs Jason listed above are accurate regarding setting up a simple two tank system (Which is how I stocked my display) and treating a few fish at a time. When I was using just two tanks before we took this to the level it is at now, I could say that I would spend 1-2 hours a day in my fish room. Time spent varies based on what stage of the process you are in and if a WC is required that particular day, what meds need dosed, what parameters need tested etc.

With the 6 current tanks running it is more like 2-5 hours per day working on the fish. I have 35 employees, work 70-80 hours a week (Away from Home and unrelated to the hobby) and still manage to take care of it all. Yes there are nights I am up till 1am, after my 2 and 4 year old's are asleep. My wife completely cares for my DT (200 gallon system) other than my weekly maintenance that I handle on Sunday AM. She is also home during the day and checks on the fish room (My unfinished basement) a couple times per day. I also have nest cams on tanks and can monitor most everything from anywhere as long as I have a connection to the internet!

So call it an average of 45 hours for a 30 day QT period with twin simple 40b setups. I don't put a value on my time, only because this is a hobby for me. If it was for profit or business I have no idea where that number would be. Once you are past the initial setup cost, and if you purchase meds in bulk (Long term savings). Say you ran 5 fish at a time. Used 50-100 (That number is probably double what is true) in meds you would have to call it 10-20 dollars per fish for actual treatment, not considering the initial setup cost and time.

This can definitely be repeated. It does require a certain level of commitment and attention to detail. You have to adhere to the dosing schedule and testing required. I have never had ammonia problems in QT that cost me a fish. Most of what we are using has little to no impact on biofilter. The meds that do can be used in a tank without a biofilter and ammonia can be detoxified with prime.

 

[HotRocks]

If I get a fish that I need to cure of parasites, I put it in a bare tank, maybe use copper and quinacrine hydrochloride and run the diatom filter. When the parasites drop off, they are almost instantly removed. Then the filter is just back flushed for a couple of minutes with hot sink water ready to be used again.

Wait a minute! Paul did you just say use copper???

 

[Paul B]

Wait a minute! Paul did you just say use copper???

I still got a bottle from probably the 70s. It was made in Brooklyn and still half full. Thats how much copper I used since then.

 

[4FordFamily]

.....Bio-spira makes water quality a non-issue in less than a day....... I think a big problem here is some people assume that the problems with QT from years ago (sometimes just a couple of years ago) still exist. A lot of the major roadblocks have been removed - most significantly in my opinion water quality (bio-spira), copper testing precision (hanna) and copper range (chelated).

This is very well-written and I could not agree more