How frequently do you change your carbon?

[aquablizz]

This thread really caught me by surprise.. For quite a while it seemed that many hobbyist were trying to back off from using too much carbon due to the potential Lateral Line disease. I did run carbon continuously for quite a while and sure enough a beautiful Koran Angle took the hit.. Now I run it vary sparingly... What are the thoughts on this, is it mainly a specific type that causes the problem??

Blizz

 

[biggen]

This thread really caught me by surprise.. For quite a while it seemed that many hobbyist were trying to back off from using too much carbon due to the potential Lateral Line disease. I did run carbon continuously for quite a while and sure enough a beautiful Koran Angle took the hit.. Now I run it vary sparingly... What are the thoughts on this, is it mainly a specific type that causes the problem??

Blizz

GAC causing lateral line disease is anecdotal at best. Ive not read anything to suggest otherwise...

 

[Scott.h]

This thread really caught me by surprise.. For quite a while it seemed that many hobbyist were trying to back off from using too much carbon due to the potential Lateral Line disease. I did run carbon continuously for quite a while and sure enough a beautiful Koran Angle took the hit.. Now I run it vary sparingly... What are the thoughts on this, is it mainly a specific type that causes the problem??

Blizz

thats news to me. I've heard nutrition and loose current causing that but not carbon

 

[Zero Nitrates]

After reading this thread and watching the BRS video, I'm thinking about getting a small reactor and running rox 0.8. I've always used a bag in the sump. I didn't realize how much better the reactor work.

 

[Gomery12]

I run Brightwells Carbonit-P, runs through my media canisters that are made for the Lifereef sump. Change it out once a month.

 

[Paul B]

I don't use any carbon except for the charcoal in my Bar Be cue so I can't get into this thread. I wish I did though.

 

[jason2459]

GAC causing lateral line disease is anecdotal at best. Ive not read anything to suggest otherwise...

Actually, it's gone past anecdotal. Use low ash, acid washed, high quality carbon thats rinsed well and not tumbled.

Start with the link I linked to in this post.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/any-ops-on-decent-activated-carbon.270448/#post-3245038

I look for acid washed.

BRS lignite is ok. Rox is better. The filter guys GAC. TLF hydrocarbon is good along with seachem matrix. ( I believe it was highlandreefer from another forum that had a great breakdown on GAC. Old thread. Edit: It was boomer but highlandreefer was involved as was Randy as well)
Edit:
Rinse well but not forcefully, do not crush, and do not tumble.

Edit edit edit edit: Here it is, one of my favorite threads discussing GAC
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1231262&highlight=rox+8

And there's these
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/activated-carbon-affirmed-as-causative-agent-for-hlle-disease

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blo...ted-in-inducing-head-and-lateral-line-erosion


And from Boomer's comments to the affirmed article

Boomer
5 years ago
The theory was small sharp <carbon> dust particles would get into
lateral line and bounce around because of the hair cells causing the
erosions and subsequent fibrosis."

This is not new news, it has been mentioned many times in the last 20 years, about participles getting into the neuro masts. Researchers keep for getting that many do not get HLLE, even when using massive amounts of GAC. You are NOT suppose to be allowing the GAC dust to get into the tank, good pre-rising usually stops this or using a filter floss at the output. And not ALL HLLE is from GAC.

Lastly, this new article by M. Andrew Stamper are some of his findings from 2 years ago, as I have posted them on fourms

A couple of observations on this complex issue.

We are currently putting the finishing touches on a manuscript
describing the dynamics of HLLES in ocean surgeons housed in water
polished with carbon. We are aiming for the Journal of Aquatic Animal
Health.

• Ed Noga’s group has proposed to talk about a HLLES as a
depigmentation clinical sign instead of a syndrome…Corrales, J; Ullal,
A; Noga, EJ Lateral line depigmentation (LLD) in channel catfish,
Ictalurus punctatus (Rafinesque). Journal of Fish Diseases. Volume 32
Issue 8, Pages 705 – 712.

• It is important to note there are possibly two phenomenon happening which are being labeled HLLES.

o One phenomenon affects the lateral line which takes two forms.

o One affects the neuromasts within the lateral line-has been documented with heavy metal toxicity.

o One causes an erosive “dermatitis” also known as Chronic Erosive
Dermatopathy. We have found this version with the use of activated
carbon and ozone.

 Baily, J E, Bretherton, M J, Gavine, FM, Ferguson, HW, and
Turnbull, JF. 2005. The pathology of chronic erosive dermatopathy in
Murray cod, Maccullochella peelii peelii (Mitchell) Journal of Fish
Diseases 2005, 28, 3–12.

 The second phenomenon is known as “epithelial thinning” which is
caused by high levels of cortisol…ie stress (multifactorial). Ed
Noga’s group describes this in…Udomkusonsri, P., E.J. Noga and N.
Monteiro-Riviere. 2004. Pathogenesis of the Acute Ulceration Response
(AUR) in hybrid striped bass. Diseases of Aquatic Organisms 61:199-213.

• Telling the difference….

o HLLES-Erosion starts at the pores and increases until they coalesce and the erosions blend to make a bigger ulcer.

o Thinning happens over a larger generalized area. Where the
epithelium starts to become transparent and eventually thins to a point
where an erosion takes place eventually resulting in an ulcer.

• We don’t know why the epithelial thinning and HLLES has a higher
affinity for the facial region. We do know there is a significantly
higher population of goblet cells within the facial and lateral line
regions of ocean surgeons. We are currently looking at mitochondrial
populations of the cells in these regions to see if they have a higher
energy need and may be more susceptible to electron disruptions.

• Current controlled experiments using ocean surgeons:

o Coconut carbon has been repeatedly used at different main stream
and side stream experiments. It causes very predictable HLLES in full
stream as well as side stream which keeps the TOC below 0.5 ppm. Very
little HLLES develops in the same side stream experiment where the flow
is reduced allowing a 1.0 ppm TOC.

o HLLES develops in fish housed in water exposed to ozone but ORP
of the environmental water at around 320 mV (no net oxidants compared to
control systems).

o There have been two vitamin deletion studies with controls (Vit A
and C) performed by the University of Florida. Vitamin A was negative.
Vitamin C was equivocal and needs to be rerun.

o In-line UV did not cause it.

o In-line foam fractionation did not cause it but this experiment needs to be rerun.

o Metals-Application of carbon had no significant manipulation of
metal concentration. No significant difference in aquarium tanks that
had HLLES verses ones that did not.

HOWEVER…on open question is the speciation of metals available to the
fish…One thing in common with ozone and carbon is the manipulation of
DOCs. Carbon absorbing it until it the carbon is saturated and ozone
chewing it up into smaller molecules. Is it possible that metals may
be more toxic in these environment (i.e. toxic enough for these cells
but not being overtly toxic) because they are not bound by the DOCs.
This is a very complex question and is cost prohibitive to investigate.

• Carbon Dust-Our later carbon studies had 1 micro filters in-line
(post carbon). Histopath did not show any carbon particles within the
tissues. Another thought is there are plenty of silicates (diatoms) in
the water which would be more affective source of irritants. Carbon
dust would provide a large surface area for absorption but I am not
convinced it acts as and irritant.

• Weight of fish per gallon…a ratio of 2.4 grams of fish/gallon
(when the fish reach 30 grams and start to show breeding colors we
average 6 fish/75 gallons) seem to keep most of the social stress at
bay. We controlled for social structure to make sure this was not
causing any HLLES signs.

• Healing of lesions during these experiments…Most of these
experiments are a yes/no question. If using controls you can tell if a
variable is causing the syndrome early in the HLLES process. At least
in ocean surgeons, if you stop the experiment just when you start seeing
HLLES and you do not have any complicating issues, the lesions heal
fairly quickly so the euthanasia question should be need to be
performed.

M. Andrew Stamper D.V.M., Dipl. A.C.Z.M.

Research Biologist/Clinical Veterinarian

Disney's Animal Programs and Environmental Initiatives

Walt Disney World Resorts

 

[jason2459]

I HAVE BEEN USING SEACHEM MATRIX CARBON FOR A FEW YEARS NOW...IT DOES WELL

THAT IS A GOOD GAC...WHY ARE WE YELLING

 

[Phil Cusimano]

Once a month like clockwork, I used BRS Rox which works well for me. FWIW

 

[Sharvey103]

I change it out once a month.

 

[timfountain]

ROX BRS also and on my 105G every 2 weeks....

 

[biggen]

Actually, it's gone past anecdotal. Use low ash, acid washed, high quality carbon thats rinsed well and not tumbled...
Snip...

That information is all well and good, but it can't explain why the majority of fish in a GAC system don't develop any lateral line disease during their lifetime...

 

[jason2459]

That information is all well and good, but it can't explain why the majority of fish in a GAC system don't develop any lateral line disease during their lifetime...

That is different then saying there is no link or there's only anecdotal evidence at best.

There is a link. It has been shown. No not every fish will get HLLE with GAC present. And not every case of HLLE will have GAC present. Both have been shown as well. That was pointed out by Boomer, the study, and article.

 

[biggen]

That is different then saying there is no link or there's only anecdotal evidence at best.

There is a link. It has been shown. No not every fish will get HLLE with GAC present. And not every case of HLLE will have GAC present. Both have been shown as well.

I have had tanks for over 15 years of my life and have been running carbon the entire time, yet, I have NEVER had any HLLE... Ever... So even though I've never won the lottery, I must be lucky as heck I've never had a problem with this.

*shrugs*

 

[jason2459]

I have had tanks for over 15 years of my life and have been running carbon the entire time, yet, I have NEVER had any HLLE... Ever... So even though I've never won the lottery, I must be lucky as heck I've never had a problem with this.

*shrugs*

And you might not ever have a fish experience HLLE.

The statement below though is why I referenced what I did. There has been some research that shows that there is a link between GAC and HLLE. You can ignore it which is fine.

GAC causing lateral line disease is anecdotal at best. Ive not read anything to suggest otherwise...

 

[Daniel@R2R]

Thanks guys! Great info being shared! I checked the BRS calculator, and they recommend a half cup for a system my size and change every two weeks. If I go with their recommendation, I'll change the carbon twice as often but actually use less of it. I'm thinking I'll use what I have now for a month and then try swapping the next batch at 2 weeks with their recommended dose and see what happens.

 

[jason2459]

Thanks guys! Great info being shared! I checked the BRS calculator, and they recommend a half cup for a system my size and change every two weeks. If I go with their recommendation, I'll change the carbon twice as often but actually use less of it. I'm thinking I'll use what I have now for a month and then try swapping the next batch at 2 weeks with their recommended dose and see what happens.

I don't remember exactly what BRS recommends but it used to be higher then necessary. Maybe thats changed.

For ROX it's been recommended to use about 1/3 cup per 50 gallon water volume.

Something like BRS Lignite 1/2 cup per 50 gallon water volume.

Changed monthly. Changed to often and you waste some surface area and not changed after a month the surface area even if not used up will start to get covered in bacteria or other microorganisms and films.

 

[Daniel@R2R]

I don't remember exactly what BRS recommends but it used to be higher then necessary. Maybe thats changed.

For ROX it's been recommended to use about 1/3 cup per 50 gallon water volume.

Something like BRS Lignite 1/2 cup per 50 gallon water volume.

Changed monthly. Changed to often and you waste some surface area and not changed after a month the surface area even if not used up will start to get covered in bacteria or other microorganisms and films.

Good info. My tank is a 50g with about 20g in the sump, so I was going with 70 gallons for the calculation (I realize that doesn't account for water displacement, but it seemed better to overestimate). The calculator recommended .44 cups, so I was rounding up to a half. At that rate, even at changing every 2 weeks, I won't use much over the course of a year...at least that's what I'm thinking.

I do want to do the comparison to see what the difference is. If it doesn't make any difference, then I'll leave it in for the full month.

 

[that Reef Guy]

I Never Change Carbon because I Never Use It.

Remember Carbon Takes Out Good Things Too.

I used Carbon for 5 Years and Growth was Terrible!

I Stopped Using it a Couple Years Ago and My Corals Took Off with Amazing Growth!

I Will Never Use Carbon Again.

 

[jason2459]

Yep, many great looking tanks never use GAC.

But many do...

That leaves personal preference. It does remove many good things and much more efficiently then a skimmer.

There's cons and pluses.

It certainly clears up the water so anyone running GAC for the first time usually sees a temporary negative reaction with their corals as they are getting more light and need to adjust.

My solution is feed more. [emoji4]