I Was Wrong

[blaxsun]

IMO, the only real way to generate clean power is nuclear, but we will never have that as long as there is money to be made with oil.

They're trying to get approval for SMRs in our province, but the decision is still six years away (2029) and will likely face an unfathomable amount of opposition leading up to that with cries of "3 Mile Island", "Chernobyl" and "Fukushima". If this succeeds then they still have to actually build them - so we're looking at sometime in the early 2040's before the first one goes online.

The irony is that we are a uranium-rich province and SMRs are perfectly-suited to our sparse population, but people would rather see us to continue to burn coal because they view it as preferable to nuclear energy (incidentally, roughly 30% of our provincial power generation still comes from coal).

So technically, my EV is 1/3 coal-powered, lol.

 

[blaxsun]

As a grumpy old timer, my first job was a grocery bagger right before the switch to plastic bags. As a natural conservation minded person I questioned it. Paper was renewable, plastic was not,in my mind, but was touted as cheaper, easy to carry and probably "save a tree" was thrown around as well.

Vermont phased out single use plastic bags a couple years ago. It took 30 years to figure that out.

It's funny you mention garbage bags as this has been a hot topic in our country these past few weeks. There's a company in Alberta that developed a a process to produce compostable bags from corn starch.

Supplier of Co-op's compostable bags frustrated by federal plastics ban

Leaf Environmental Products' compostable bag contains no plastic, but the federal government considers it an unconventional plastic.

calgaryherald.com

The problem is that our government considers them "unconventional plastics" and has banned their use for grocery bags (one of the local food chains had been handing them out at the till).

Now, this is where this whole thing goes completely full on moronic. The grocery stores have to stop providing them at the checkout... but you can still buy the bags in the grocery stores themselves (just in a box, in bulk).

 

[blaxsun]

I agree, as someone who spent 4 years working on them, they are a nightmare. When there is a problem, it's basically get a new one or spend the price of a new one in repairs. Those batteries are dangerous and tens of thousands of dollars. Not to mention the fact that I have seen multiple units where the body panels touch each other, they forgot to paint a whole area of the car, or the wheels have cracked due to the weight of the vehicle and the low profile tires. I do not see the appeal other than the insane acceleration, but that is basically a party trick.

Behind our local Tesla dealership they attempt to "hide" (at least from street view, anyway) a dozen or more Teslas at any given time in various states of repair - all waiting for parts. The wait times for a mechanic or body shop borders on obscene.

 

[Kato]

You can usually find a Tesla here (at least used ones), but the problem is that they're junk. They have very little resale value due to issues with batteries and the ridiculous associated repair costs with owing own once the warranty is gone. Teslas are one of the few vehicles most dealers won't take in on trade.

Interesting. Completely opposite in the EU. They sell like sliced bread. Used or not. Batteries last.

Again keep in mind Tesla produces the most sold car in the world.

 

[PhishMonger84]

As a grumpy old timer, my first job was a grocery bagger right before the switch to plastic bags. As a natural conservation minded person I questioned it. Paper was renewable, plastic was not,in my mind, but was touted as cheaper, easy to carry and probably "save a tree" was thrown around as well.

Vermont phased out single use plastic bags a couple years ago. It took 30 years to figure that out.

I agree with all the points with city conversion to EV...I lived outside of Boston in the 80s and the old school electric busses were still using overhead trolly wires.

Vermont is a very green...at least politically, state. Universal recycling, even down to household recycling food scraps. Solar everywhere. But we also have a strong NIMBY presence....not in my backyard. We block big retailers like Walmart, block wind power. Many folks will say we aren't a business friendly state with regard to our environmental laws. Our electricity isn't cheap, among other things being in a highly taxed state.

Sure...when my ICE van rusts to the point that it starts costing a lot to inspect, then I'll look into the offers of the EV products. My town actually put in a charging station recently, along with a car wash....we haven't had a car wash in my town for about 20 years.

There's a big push for heat pumps up here. I'm not sold on them yet, since I look at the set up costs vs what I pay now to heat/cool with electric.

Marginally off topic other than the interest of bridge building, one of my old college roommates and long time friend worked at the fishery in Tacoma Washington, now he’s at the one near Woodstock CT.

 

[blaxsun]

Interesting. Completely opposite in the EU. They sell like sliced bread. Used or not. Batteries last.

Again keep in mind Tesla produces the most sold car in the world.

It's not entirely the batteries - there are just a lot of QC issues, ie: paint defects, panel alignment, etc. And when they do get into an accident parts are very expensive and hard to source.

I think they lost that title to one of the Chinese EV companies for a month or so, but yes they are. For now, anyway...

 

[ErikVR]

For me, it is just the questionably sourced lithium and other elements in those batteries. I feel like transportation in general is going to be dirty no matter what. ICEs or EVs, that energy comes from somewhere. The greenhouse gasses are just generated away from your driveway. IMO, the only real way to generate clean power is nuclear, but we will never have that as long as there is money to be made with oil.

But you don't mind the questionable elements that are used in oil refining? Or the oil that's being shipped all over the globe?

Cobalt Mining: There's Something That the Petrol Companies Don't Want You to Know

 

[Kato]

It's not entirely the batteries - there are just a lot of QC issues, ie: paint defects, panel alignment, etc. And when they do get into an accident parts are very expensive and hard to source.

I think they lost that title to one of the Chinese EV companies for a month or so, but yes they are. For now, anyway...

That I agree with. I’ve had the products for 8 years. To sum it up:

Tesla: best in class tech and functionally. Quality of materials not so much. Significant worse. Munch higher tolerances around panel alignment and general quality feel (this is different vs how long something will last but still important in the price range)

Germans and others: the exact opposite

 

[Kato]

That I agree with. I’ve had the products for 8 years. To sum it up:

Tesla: best in class tech and functionally. Quality of materials not so much. Significant worse. Munch higher tolerances around panel alignment and general quality feel (this is different vs how long something will last but still important in the price range)

Germans and others: the exact opposite

Game is on for whoever hits both sweet spots

 

[Lasse]

There's a big push for heat pumps up here. I'm not sold on them yet, since I look at the set up costs vs what I pay now to heat/cool with electric.

Heatpumps is more or less standard for heating/cooling of villas in Sweden. Some is rock based geothermal heat pumps, some are soil based geothermal heat pumps, but mainly in central and southern Sweden they are air to air heat pumps. With the rising summer temperatures we are having, they can easily be turned into AC if needed. Most often, air-to-air heat pumps are a complement to other heating. A good air-to-air heat pump can reduce energy consumption for heating by approx. 50%. Before anyone react - air to air heatpumps in Sweden can work well down to - 20 degree C - some down to - 30 degree C

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lowell Lemon]

Your right - We have no clue at all

The charts below - not in scale at all - the chart above - in scale

Further on - no one have say anything about the ones that need special solutions outside population centra. But still the urbanization rate in Canada 2021 - 81.65% - Sweden 2022 - 88.49 - US around 82.66 % (2020) We do not differ especially much.

About converting diesel into electricity by a power plant. It will be more efficient to do that - both in energy and CO2 emission perspective. Some math. An average efficiency of a diesel generator is 40%. 40 % percent of the energy will be converted inte electricity. 1 L diesel is equal to 9.9633 kWh. 40 % of that is around 4 kWh. (1 L gasoline is around 9.044 kWh) An average EV in Sweden consume 2 kWh/10 km -> 0.2 kWh/km. It will run 20 km on 1 L diesel converted into electricity by a generator. Average diesel car in Sweden consume 0.68 L/10 km -> it will run around 15 km if you put i directly in your car. Average gasoline consumption - 0.83 L/10 km - It will run 12 km on same amount gasoline as the amount diesel that produce 4 kWh in a diesel generator. I use a small Kia Picanto - it consume around 0.54 L/10 km -> it will run 18,5 km on 1 L gasoline. I can drive below 0.5 L/10 km and stay rather equal to the worst scenario - electricity produced by oil but the electricity mix we have here in Sweden (98 % fossil free) make the electric cars stand out much more.

There is better and worse examples - I try to stay to average in Sweden

Sincerely Lasse

Lasse,

please don't blind me with math and science LOL! I only deal in emotions and feelings LOL! Sir I love reading your response. I just live in a particular area with different needs and I know you understand that. One size does not fit all but world wide politicians and media giants seem to think imposing their will on the great unwashed like myself will solve the very problems they created.

I wish you could see the carnage social experiments have brought to some of the most beautiful cities in my region Seattle, and Portland. Now they are like open sewers and land fills since making drug use and homelessness rampant. No amount of money can fix it but deepen the ever growing divide. There are still almost daily riots in Portland that the media is trying to ignore but media lit the fuse. Portland now has an EV only zone that requires a new warehouse and staging area just to move freight to EV delivery vehicles just to enter the zone and deliver freight. Huge extra expense just to posture that small area as "green" and insulate all the local government buildings from seeing how the rest of us have to live. It is so hypocritical that it just adds another layer of us and them. The political elites in our country are so out of touch they don't understand how the " little people" survive.

Those same policies are driving the requirements to purchase unsupported technology at prices very few of us can afford. That is the problem not the adoption of technology that has matured to meet demand. I drive by wind farms that sit idle many times of the year. They were built to drive up the cost of electricity to the local market to meet prices charged in the Northeast. Local utilities are required by law to buy a certian amount of wind generation at a higher cost per kw hour. President Obama did that. We had some of the lowest electricity rates in the nation until he demanded through executive action the building of wind farms. We did not need them because we sit on one of the largest hydroelectric systems in the Northwest. The Northwest was exporting generation to other markets. Those wind farms were a huge boon to the Chinese companies that built all the components that are now wearing out before they reach their break even costs. 10 years for blades instead of the 20 year life cycle. Blades traveled via diesel driven ships half a world away, then by diesel barge to our seaport in Idaho, then onto huge delivery trucks and caravans that block two lane highways into Canada and locations in the Mid-west. I can't even estimate the actual Co2 emissions generated by this wastful development and the performance of less than half the engineered life cycle. It will soon be unsustainable when the government money runs out.

Our governor is now developing ways to tax EV's at a per mile rate since EV's have eaten into the revenue of one of the highest fuel tax rates in the US. His policy will actually increase the cost of going EV and further erode adoption of EV by many of us who don't live at the top of the urban food chain. So now we are headed to taxes per mile plus higher fuel cost. Most of us vote with our feet and buy gas on the Idaho side of the river at a much lower rate. Some of us will just move out of the state soon and leave our state holding the empty bag. Choices have consequences and the three western states are about to lose very productive businesses and individuals who have been marginalized buy our state governments. California has had a net loss of 500,000 individuals in the last recorded period. The three states are starting to have net loss of populations as people vote with their feet!

By the way you missed Alaska and Hawaii in your map. Just saying lots of land mass with very little population. Sweden is .26 times as big as Alaska. Alaska is 34 times bigger than Denmark. Alaska is 4.4 times larger than Finland. It took both my sons 42 hours of non stop team driving just to get from the Idaho-Canada border to the border of Alaska-Canada with average speed in excess of 60mph. I surveyed 53 miles of the international border between Canada and Alaska in 2012. To say it was remote is an understatement and we were just north of the the Alcan highway crossing into Alaska. Helicopter was the only way to work each day for our crews and myself. Quite the adventure but it helped me understand how vast the undeveloped spaces are around me!

Diesel is almost $1.00 more per gallon now due to government regulation. It is a major driver in expense for people in rural areas. I drive a 3/4 ton truck that burns unleaded gas as it is lower cost for operation per mile. I park it most of the time unless I am picking up or delivering countertop materials. I drive a motorcycle or more fuel efficient car to save gas expenses as often as possible. On the average I drive more than 300 miles in a week just to service my region. No place to publicly charge a EV in any of those areas.

Lasse respect as always you are one of the best!

 

[Lowell Lemon]

Personally I'm ambivalent about EVs solving any global environmental problems—they do seem to hold promise for reducing particulate air pollution and noise pollution in population centers, among other ideas—but you are misrepresenting aspects of this. Most Americans don't live in sparsely-populated rural areas; they live in and around small and large cities.

There are unreasonable positions and claims everywhere you look, but nobody who really knows about EVs is demanding that people in remote areas adopt them immediately. Neither are they demanding electrification for trucks or heavy equipment because everybody knows the technology just isn't available or scalable yet.

I grew up on a farm and I live in a small city now. Believe me I've heard plenty of uninformed opinions about the land and the environment from both urban and rural people alike.

California is demanding the electrification of both trucks and cars by was it 2035? Not even the CARB has figured out how to implement the law but it has passed the state legislature. They still don't have nor will have a power grid that will handle the change. They can't even manage the current power grid without burning towns down like Paradise.

 

[blaxsun]

Game is on for whoever hits both sweet spots

My money is on BMW. If they can retrofit their 1/2/3 series to EV they'll have a killer EV lineup.

 

[blecki]

Just going to put this out there. The lower 48 does not make policy based on Alaska. That would be like Canada setting policy for Quebec based on Nunavut.

We already know EVs aren't the best choice for Alaska. The goal is to get them where they help - in the urban centers, where most humans live.

 

[blaxsun]

Just going to put this out there. The lower 48 does not make policy based on Alaska. That would be like Canada setting policy for Quebec based on Nunavut.

We already know EVs aren't the best choice for Alaska. The goal is to get them where they help - in the urban centers, where most humans live.

Northern Canada has been given numerous exemptions for implementation of green policies, so it's a fair analogy.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

Just going to put this out there. The lower 48 does not make policy based on Alaska. That would be like Canada setting policy for Quebec based on Nunavut.

We already know EVs aren't the best choice for Alaska. The goal is to get them where they help - in the urban centers, where most humans live.

They are not the best policy for the majority of the Northwest. Not even a EV car dealer for over 100 miles. One of my customers had to have her BMW EV delivered on a flat bed cause it would not even make the drive from Spokane to Pullman Washington without a recharge. She just uses it to commute to work 5 minutes away. Not practical at all when you look at cost and limited range. Many people in Pullman have to go to Spokane for medical treatment. She will have to have someone in a gas or diesel vehicle transport her for medical treatment if necessary. Just one aspect of one size does not fit all. She could have just used hybrid for less cost and still have the range. Just one example of green posturing that is not practical.

 

[blecki]

California has had a net loss of 500,000 individuals in the last recorded period. The three states are starting to have net loss of populations as people vote with their feet!

I wonder if there is a reason the state that contains 1/8th of the entire population of the US had such a massive loss of residents between 2020 and 2022.

I can't quite smell it...

Here's PPIC's summary of the situation: https://www.ppic.org/publication/californias-population/
Things to note - California has been a 'pass through' state for over 20 years; with new immigrants arriving from foreign countries faster than people left. This has changed pretty predictably with immigration policy. The pandemic loss is super obvious on the charts of population change. Of those that moved rather than died, the most common reason is housing prices. Housing prices follow demand - they are high because people want to live in California.

 

[blecki]

She will have to have someone in a gas or diesel vehicle transport her for medical treatment if necessary.

Pullman and Spokane are 75 miles apart. Entry level EVs have a range of 250 miles now. The BMW IX gets 350. My ICE crossover only gets 325.

Please stop making stuff up.

 

[blaxsun]

They are not the best policy for the majority of the Northwest.

I wholeheartedly agree. There are 3 types of vehicle owners in North America right now:

1. Those that own a EV and can't figure out why everyone else doesn't drive one.
2. Those that own a ICE due to cost, range, convenience or requirements for work (payload, commute, etc.)
3. Those who recognize the benefits of owning a EV, and may own one at some point - but will look at a hybrid as a first stepping stone and probably still retain a ICE even in the event they get a hybrid or EV.

 

[blaxsun]

I wonder if there is a reason the state that contains 1/8th of the entire population of the US had such a massive loss of residents between 2020 and 2022. I can't quite smell it...

Simple: taxation and increasing costs of living (not just housing). And what's more important than the number of people leaving is the type of people leaving: the wealthy.

The people leaving California are the ones disproportionately generating most of the tax revenue. California has serious financial shortfalls ahead.