I Was Wrong

[Lowell Lemon]

Pullman and Spokane are 75 miles apart. Entry level EVs have a range of 250 miles now. The BMW IX gets 350. My ICE crossover only gets 325.

Please stop making stuff up.

I did not make it up it was one of the glorified two seat golf carts BMW made a few years ago. Don't know the model just a two seater like a Smart car. The customer told me the whole story personally. Were you there in the kitchen somewhere? No you were not. Perhaps assumption on your part without asking clarifying questions?

 

[Pistondog]

I wholeheartedly agree. There are 3 types of vehicle owners in North America right now:

1. Those that own a EV and can't figure out why everyone else doesn't drive one.
2. Those that own a ICE due to cost, range, convenience or requirements for work (payload, commute, etc.)
3. Those who recognize the benefits of owning a EV, and may own one at some point - but will look at a hybrid as a first stepping stone and probably still retain a ICE even in the event they get a hybrid or EV.

4. Those who own Ev and have not had it back to the dealer since purchase, 40k miles later.
No reason to be near the dealer if no maintenance is required.

 

[blaxsun]

I did not make it up it was one of the glorified two seat golf carts BMW made a few years ago. Don't know the model just a two seater like a Smart car. The customer told me the whole story personally. Were you there in the kitchen somewhere? No you were not. Perhaps assumption on your part without asking clarifying questions?

You're probably talking about a BMW i3 (although it's a 4-seater). The range on the 2021 model is 153 miles but if you opted for the engine range extender (2-cylinder gas engine) it increased it to 200 miles. The stated EV-only range is also primarily city and not highway, so yeah - the base EV couldn't make the return trip without first recharging at a L3 fast charger (it would probably take 3-4 hours on a L2 charger).

 

[blaxsun]

4. Those who own Ev and have not had it back to the dealer since purchase, 40k miles later.
No reason to be near the dealer if no maintenance is required.

These are kind of grouped with #1.

 

[blecki]

I did not make it up it was one of the glorified two seat golf carts BMW made a few years ago.

I'm going to have to quote myself aren't I?

That's the funny thing about technology. What was true of EVs eight years ago when BMW first released the i3 has zero relevance on policy tomorrow.

You're arguing that EVs are not practical based on data that is not current.

The BMW i4 has a range of 307 miles.

The Chevy Bolt makes 259.

The 2024 Chevy Equinox (A crossover SUV, not a small car) gets 300 miles.

The Dutch company Lightyear is producing a self-recharging solar powered car that, by recharging the battery while you drive, reaches a day-time range of 500 miles. And yes, solar panels still work when it's cloudy.

Aptera Motors has made a concept car that attained 1,000 miles, though it looks a bit ridiculous.

The technology is coming - you can't hide from it forever.

 

[Pistondog]

These are kind of grouped with #1.

I considered that, but after reading this thread, there are reasons everyone wont buy one (today), valid or other.

 

[blaxsun]

I considered that, but after reading this thread, there are reasons everyone wont buy one (today), valid or other.

If you don't agree that everyone needs an EV (or at least that different realities will dictate choices for others), then you're in the third group (with me and many others).

 

[workhz]

I wholeheartedly agree. There are 3 types of vehicle owners in North America right now:

1. Those that own a EV and can't figure out why everyone else doesn't drive one.
2. Those that own a ICE due to cost, range, convenience or requirements for work (payload, commute, etc.)
3. Those who recognize the benefits of owning a EV, and may own one at some point - but will look at a hybrid as a first stepping stone and probably still retain a ICE even in the event they get a hybrid or EV.

4. Those that want sports cars, track occasionally or like the sound of an engine. 4a) Those of us hoping we make the switch to hydrogen or synthetic fuels soon instead of EV. I for one hope EVs will turn out to be our generation's betamax and this is coming from someone that worked on electric race cars in college 2+ decades ago.

 

[blaxsun]

4. Those that want sports cars, track occasionally or like the sound of an engine. 4a) Those of us hoping we make the switch to hydrogen or synthetic fuels soon instead of EV. I for one hope EVs will turn out to be our generation's betamax and this is coming from someone that worked on electric race cars in college 2+ decades ago.

That's the "etc." in #2. I think any future hydrogen vehicles are likely to be the fuel-cell variant and not the hydrogen-ICE that you're hoping for. BMW has been making hydrogen-ICE vehicles for year, but their new X5 hydrogen prototype is the fuel cell/electric variety.

 

[blaxsun]

I'm going to have to quote myself aren't I?

That's the funny thing about technology. What was true of EVs eight years ago when BMW first released the i3 has zero relevance on policy tomorrow.

I think he was referring to that specific scenario.

 

[blaxsun]

The BMW i4 has a range of 307 miles.

Since you own an iX and I'm assuming have driven one for a while now, you know that the stated range can and does vary significantly. For example, I can get 600km range in-city on my i4 (if I drive like a nun). Highway it's closer to 400 (even at or around the suggested speed limit). In winter that drops by 25%; add another 5% for lights if you're driving at night.

To BMW's credit, they don't overstate the range like some (ahem) car companies.

 

[jabberwock]

I live in the Northwest. You can hardly leave a metro area and charge an EV car unless you have your own home charger. You cannot drive to Seattle and back in a day with EV. Something that I have to do often. Couple that with a need to transport up to 3000lbs of stone slabs to my shop with a 200 mile round trip and again no EV will do that. Now look at the acquisition cost of EV in most categories it exceeds $100,000.00 landed cost. My current vehicles all cost less than $30,000.00 when new. The average yearly wage in my county is $43,407.00. Home price average is now in my county $399,000. Tell me how can anyone except the very rich locally afford to buy a house and a car at those prices that must be able to cross 300 to 500 miles in a day for some business or farm shopping needs? The local rail infrastructure is being torn our by the hundreds of miles per year due to trucks being more effective in transportation due to our far flung cities and towns.

You guys in Europe have no idea of the size and scale of Canada or the United States until you drive cross country and see the thousands of miles of low population area in North America. Get a clue we are very different in our needs and our land holdings alone dwarf the scale you are used to. We actually still have old growth forest while yours were replanted years ago. There is no comparison. And our needs are very different. The dirty secret of the many of the charging stations in California is they are driven by diesel generators that charge the super charging stations set up for Tesla and others due to the lack of infrastructure for electricity. The miles of electrical cables needed to deliver power over those vast distances again makes this a pipe dream to meet California's needs alone. Their power distribution system is outdated and poorly maintained. Entire communities have burned to the ground due to PG&E's poor maintenance. They were the first corporation charged with involuntary manslaughter and 11 other felonies in 2020 alone. I have friends who lost thier home in the Paradise fire in California.

The wind farms are already degraded and the blades are not even making it to ten years useful life and we are having to bury them in large waste dumps in our more barren land areas. No plan or ability to recycle them just like the batteries in EV. Lots of promise but very little delivery in lifespan or delivery on the promise. This is a political burden the average person cannot afford in our area yet you urban dwellers look down on those of us who have more connection to the land and its needs than you will even understand.

I see all this discussion as overreach by governments and individuals who have no clue how a large majority of people have to live there daily lives in rural and low density areas. To us it is about our freedom and protecting our way of life. When the technology matures to the point of practical and cost effective we will adopt it but not until. Some of our wheat ranches are bigger than some of your European cities in terms of land mass. We feed the world in the Northwest and EV's are not up to the task yet.

Where is the applause EMOJI?
Well spoken.

 

[blaxsun]

Where is the applause EMOJI?
Well spoken.

 

[jabberwock]

Your right - We have no clue at all

The charts below - not in scale at all - the chart above - in scale

Lasse - I don't think you accounted for the fact that degrees of longitude are not a consistent unit. The closer you get to the poles, the smaller the unit gets.

Greenland is not really as big as Africa.
Check out this handy web page.
The True Size

 

[jabberwock]

They already make EVs with more range than a full tank of gas in my ICE car...

They have electric semi trucks.

You guys who are so opposed to them because they can't meet your needs now but...
1) They can
2) In 10 years you won't even question it.

That's the point of things like the 2035 mandate. It forces the manufacturers to invest in the technology. More research and development means better cars. Better cars means more sales. More sales means more demand for infrastructure. All of this also lowers prices.

You lot sound like a bunch of old dudes in 1910 bemoaning the gasoline vehicle. "There's no where outside the city to buy gas!" "You're going to put all the dung shovelers out of a job!" "What about out on the farm? Those stupid cars always just get stuck in the mud."

This is why it will fail. Because it is a MANDATE without sight or consideration of supply, demand, or feasibility.

 

[blaxsun]

I personally like this one myself... Sweden (country) has a land mass ~100,000km2 smaller than Saskatchewan (my province). And roughly 8x the population...

I think this one is the most telling... Notice anything missing in roughly 2/3's of the province? Once you go past Prince Albert in an EV you are on your own!

The second image shows the range of my EV. Blue is one-way if I have a charging station at the destination. Red is if I need to return without charging.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

I'm going to have to quote myself aren't I?

That's the funny thing about technology. What was true of EVs eight years ago when BMW first released the i3 has zero relevance on policy tomorrow.

You're arguing that EVs are not practical based on data that is not current.

The BMW i4 has a range of 307 miles.

The Chevy Bolt makes 259.

The 2024 Chevy Equinox (A crossover SUV, not a small car) gets 300 miles.

The Dutch company Lightyear is producing a self-recharging solar powered car that, by recharging the battery while you drive, reaches a day-time range of 500 miles. And yes, solar panels still work when it's cloudy.

Aptera Motors has made a concept car that attained 1,000 miles, though it looks a bit ridiculous.

The technology is coming - you can't hide from it forever.

Easy hoss I clarified the conversation. I have lived long enough to see trends come and go. I was very excited by the technology and was very interested that is why I had the conversation with my customer. I am a car guy and got my first car during President Carter's energy crisis. While everyone was dumping their muscle cars for cheap I bought a VW/Porsche 914 with a 1.7 liter engine and enjoyed nearly 40 mpg. I grew up cognizant of low fuel consumption and remember the days of even/odd fuel purchasing. I remember President Carter's fire side chats in his sweater jackets telling the nation to turn down the thermostat and wear a coat or jacket indoors. Guess what we seem to have had plenty of energy of all kinds since. Wonder why?

I was excited to hear GM was looking at making EV swap units to fit in current muscle cars and older trucks. We will see where it goes in the future. I have watched the government dupe Americans before and I have seen it again and again. Policy that is poorly conceived is my concern not emerging technology. My company has Technology as part of it's name. I am just not an early adopter or I might have bought Betamax and some of the other technologies that died right away.

If I can afford the technology and it makes since for my personal and business needs I will buy but not until. It is just common sense that seems to be less common these days. Right now the cheapest car to own and purchase new is the Toyota Rav4 Hybrid. I live in snow country so I need at least one 4 wheel drive in the family. In business they taught us ROI (return on investment) for those who might not know. It makes sense to use that for major purchases like cars nowadays.

 

[Kato]

4. Those who own Ev and have not had it back to the dealer since purchase, 40k miles later.
No reason to be near the dealer if no maintenance is

I personally like this one myself... Sweden (country) has a land mass ~100,000km2 smaller than Saskatchewan (my province). And roughly 8x the population...

I think this one is the most telling... Notice anything missing in roughly 2/3's of the province? Once you go past Prince Albert in an EV you are on your own!

The second image shows the range of my EV. Blue is one-way if I have a charging station at the destination. Red is if I need to return without charging.

I assume gas stations are available where you would like to go. When do you think they will install high speed chargers?

 

[blaxsun]

I am just not an early adopter or I might have bought Betamax and some of the other technologies that died right away.

4k still doesn't hold a candle to my laserdiscs...

 

[blaxsun]

I assume gas stations are available where you would like to go. When do you think they will install high speed chargers?

For the most part, yes - although once you go past La Ronge it can be hit and miss. I think that other than the obvious major population centers, Lloydminster and Kindersley are great spots for L3 charging stations (due to the frequency of travel between Saskatoon » Edmonton and Saskatoon » Calgary). Right now it's not conducive to divert several hundred km for a L3 charging station.

I can also see a L3 charging station in Prince Albert and possibly in Waskesiu, as it's a fairly popular provincial park. But probably not more than 1-2 of the L3 slots. Most of the provincial parks in Saskatchewan do have L2 charging, but that's not really practical for visitors when you only have a handful.

We worked out the trip from Saskatoon to Calgary to visit my folks: 7 hours in our ICE or about 12 hours in our EV (with 2-3 charging stops and assuming we could find a berth at a L3 charging station).