Micro and nano bubble tank treatment

[sil40sx]

Started this last week, and probably will be doing regularly for 6-8 hours nightly (when lights are off). Just have to fine tune the pump and airstone to medium happy. I'm using Lee's wooden air stone and a Tetra whisper air pump rated for 10 gallons, no idea how much PSI.

These are my initial thoughts so far:

Positive:
- ASD Rainbow Milli, Red Planet Acro and Hoeksemai Stag visibly extended more polyps
- Acans and trachy looks fatter (absorbs more water?)
- anecdotal or not, my small patches of cyano seems to be fading
- I cannot believe I'm saying this, but all fish are eating like piranhas. (I've seen same posts regarding fish appetite increased while micro bubble scrubbing, I said to myself that could just be a coensidence with something else. But now I believe them. LOL)
- all corals opened up when the lights are back on


Negative:
- Red planet and Fathead denro slime like crazy while micro bubbling (too much slime going in to the socks, have to replace every other day)
- air valve is barely open, but still getting salt creep/spray at the back of my tank where the return pump is (I have an AIO tank).
- tiny bit of saltwater smell in the morning (not stinky, but wife don't approve. LOL)

I'm sure I'm still missing something, but I will update whenever I get a chance.

 

[Abhishek]

Am really looking forward to use microscrubbing. Have ordered most of the items in @Cruz_Arias list.
However , have got 2 questions :-

1. I do not have a buffle infront of my return chamber . Can I place the wooden airstone right infront of the return pump? Will it cause all the bigger bubbles to be sucked in ?

2. My return is a seaswirl with a 1 inch elbow pvc attached to it. So there's no locline or anything that would cause back pressure on the return line. Do we need a loc line or sometjing similar in the return to create a little back pressure ?

Regards,
Abhishek

 

[Mpal771]

There was a very lengthy r2r thread on this several months ago. I followed for a time and was waiting for Randy Farley to weigh in. If he did-I missed it and that cat is spot on. Nothing anecdotal from him.
The 1st concern here is the effect on the fish with numerous articles and papers over the years about micro bubbles causing irritation/disease to fish eyes.
The 2nd concern is tank stability with what literally becomes a chaotic environment not consistent with most coral/fish natural habitats.
The 3rd concern are calcium levels (also related to stability) that should be dropping due to the immediate positive sps response to the scrubbing. The previous thread also addressed the scientific explanation of mucus shedding, and it makes sense that this is a positive reaction. Part of this concern is the coral elevated response sustaining this reaction for extended periods without a commensurate nutritional increase.
That takes us back to where this started...removing excess nutrients.

So when I get this far in a reefing mental exercise, I simply stop and become mindful that I am a hobbyist.

But a big thank you to all of the hobbyists out there engaging in this and reporting their findings. Your the reason that the hobby has come so far. I'm downright giddy on the potential of this...and just concerned

Ps: I would greatly appreciate a link to any 3-6 month look on water parameters and overall coral health relative to frequency of scrubbing.

Max

 

[Cruz_Arias]

Am really looking forward to use microscrubbing. Have ordered most of the items in @Cruz_Arias list.
However , have got 2 questions :-

1. I do not have a buffle infront of my return chamber . Can I place the wooden airstone right infront of the return pump? Will it cause all the bigger bubbles to be sucked in ?

2. My return is a seaswirl with a 1 inch elbow pvc attached to it. So there's no locline or anything that would cause back pressure on the return line. Do we need a loc line or sometjing similar in the return to create a little back pressure ?

Regards,
Abhishek

Placing the air diffuser too close to the return pump intake will allow the pump to suck in a lot of bubbles and possibly cause entrainment in the return lines. That is not good.

Instead, place the air diffuser about 2 to 3 inches away from the intake close to where the water is flowing from the previous chamber before the return pump chamber. This will allow only the finest bubbles with minimal buoyancy to make it to the return pump.

In regards to the sea swirl outlet, if you can reduce the output port that would be the best. However, try it without it first and see if the velocity of water flow is sufficient to push the fine bubbles throughout the display...

You can easily reduce the seaswirl outlet port with a pvc reducer that you can pick up at a local hardware store.

Hope that helps!

 

[Cruz_Arias]

Started this last week, and probably will be doing regularly for 6-8 hours nightly (when lights are off). Just have to fine tune the pump and airstone to medium happy. I'm using Lee's wooden air stone and a Tetra whisper air pump rated for 10 gallons, no idea how much PSI.

These are my initial thoughts so far:

Positive:
- ASD Rainbow Milli, Red Planet Acro and Hoeksemai Stag visibly extended more polyps
- Acans and trachy looks fatter (absorbs more water?)
- anecdotal or not, my small patches of cyano seems to be fading
- I cannot believe I'm saying this, but all fish are eating like piranhas. (I've seen same posts regarding fish appetite increased while micro bubble scrubbing, I said to myself that could just be a coensidence with something else. But now I believe them. LOL)
- all corals opened up when the lights are back on


Negative:
- Red planet and Fathead denro slime like crazy while micro bubbling (too much slime going in to the socks, have to replace every other day)
- air valve is barely open, but still getting salt creep/spray at the back of my tank where the return pump is (I have an AIO tank).
- tiny bit of saltwater smell in the morning (not stinky, but wife don't approve. LOL)

I'm sure I'm still missing something, but I will update whenever I get a chance.

The sliming will reduce drastically as will the smell.

This was the degassing of trapped metabolic gases in the sand, rocks and water column that we mentioned. (Sorry, it does smell a bit until things get back to normal... in a few days)

For the salt spray near the back of the aoi's, we have suggested placing a foam block (open cell) to stop the splashing while allowing metabolic waste gas to escape.

Hope that helps as well!

 

[sil40sx]

The sliming will reduce drastically as will the smell.

This was the degassing of trapped metabolic gases in the sand, rocks and water column that we mentioned. (Sorry, it does smell a bit until things get back to normal... in a few days)

For the salt spray near the back of the aoi's, we have suggested placing a foam block (open cell) to stop the splashing while allowing metabolic waste gas to escape.

Hope that helps as well!

Thanks.

Yeah, actually that's why I did on the back chamber. I covered the part where the bubbles pop with sponge/pad.

So far, so good. No drastic change, but tank looks nice and clean, fish and coral looks happy and healthy too. Except for minor patches of cyano that seems to come and go. Also, the smell went away after a few days.

 

[Abhishek]

Placing the air diffuser too close to the return pump intake will allow the pump to suck in a lot of bubbles and possibly cause entrainment in the return lines. That is not good.

Instead, place the air diffuser about 2 to 3 inches away from the intake close to where the water is flowing from the previous chamber before the return pump chamber. This will allow only the finest bubbles with minimal buoyancy to make it to the return pump.

In regards to the sea swirl outlet, if you can reduce the output port that would be the best. However, try it without it first and see if the velocity of water flow is sufficient to push the fine bubbles throughout the display...

You can easily reduce the seaswirl outlet port with a pvc reducer that you can pick up at a local hardware store.

Hope that helps!

Thanks @Cruz_Arias for the reply. Really can't wait to start it out for the cyano issues am having with my tank.

Regards,
Abhishek

 

[Cruz_Arias]

There was a very lengthy r2r thread on this several months ago. I followed for a time and was waiting for Randy Farley to weigh in. If he did-I missed it and that cat is spot on. Nothing anecdotal from him.
The 1st concern here is the effect on the fish with numerous articles and papers over the years about micro bubbles causing irritation/disease to fish eyes.
The 2nd concern is tank stability with what literally becomes a chaotic environment not consistent with most coral/fish natural habitats.
The 3rd concern are calcium levels (also related to stability) that should be dropping due to the immediate positive sps response to the scrubbing. The previous thread also addressed the scientific explanation of mucus shedding, and it makes sense that this is a positive reaction. Part of this concern is the coral elevated response sustaining this reaction for extended periods without a commensurate nutritional increase.
That takes us back to where this started...removing excess nutrients.

So when I get this far in a reefing mental exercise, I simply stop and become mindful that I am a hobbyist.

But a big thank you to all of the hobbyists out there engaging in this and reporting their findings. Your the reason that the hobby has come so far. I'm downright giddy on the potential of this...and just concerned

Ps: I would greatly appreciate a link to any 3-6 month look on water parameters and overall coral health relative to frequency of scrubbing.

Max

We have compilations of other hobbyists that we have helped over the last couple of years utilize this method in a few different ways.

One is for deep cleaning (heavier micro-nano bubble density) and the other as a daily maintenance measure (lighter micro-nano bubble density)

When many first start out, most of the issues are from high excess nutrient levels which can cause cyano outbreaks, gha issues, as well as lethargy in the reef tank inhabitants including fish and inverts in the clean up crews...

Please feel free to peruse the video compilations... these aren't high pressurized micro bubble blasting that was done over a decade ago... this is finesse with even SMALLER bubbles...

Micro-nanobubble mist...

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLpJ9y2PjWr6xMQ-rVUjKzAoK1_qX4-X_t

 

[Abhishek]

Placing the air diffuser too close to the return pump intake will allow the pump to suck in a lot of bubbles and possibly cause entrainment in the return lines. That is not good.

Instead, place the air diffuser about 2 to 3 inches away from the intake close to where the water is flowing from the previous chamber before the return pump chamber. This will allow only the finest bubbles with minimal buoyancy to make it to the return pump.

In regards to the sea swirl outlet, if you can reduce the output port that would be the best. However, try it without it first and see if the velocity of water flow is sufficient to push the fine bubbles throughout the display...

You can easily reduce the seaswirl outlet port with a pvc reducer that you can pick up at a local hardware store.

Hope that helps!

Ok, I tried it yesterday and it was definitely not a mist but micro bubbles . The LPS and some birdsnests slimmed a lot but love to get the mist .
Couple of issues are - I don't have enough sump space clearence infront of the return pump. Don't know how to show you @Cruz_Arias . Will try and take a video of the mist to get your thoughts.
As of now, the Luft pump is running at maximum power and the check valve is completely open.
If I reduce the power in the pump or close the valve, the bubble generation reduces for the wooden airstone.

Second issue is with the return with seaswirl where I think I need to use a reducer or an eductor .

Thinking out loud, is it possible to place the wooden airstone under a Tunze pump which can chop the bubbles inside the tank itself ?

Will try and show my bubble generation video to get more of your thoughts .

My bubbles actually looked pretty similar to this :-



But am looking for mist as I believe these were not micro-nano bubbles.

Regards,
Abhishek

 

[Cruz_Arias]

Yes, @Abhishek ... that is pretty coarse...
What type of Luft Pump do you have? And what type of wooden air stone and check valve?

 

[Abhishek]

Thanks @Cruz_Arias for the reply.

This is the pump am using :-

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/luft-pump-coralife.html

Wooden air stone - Lee's

Check Valve - http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/micro-airline-control-ball-valves-6-two-little-fishies.html

The pump is running in full power and the vale is open all the way .

Regards,
Abhishek

 

[Cruz_Arias]

Ok, I tried it yesterday and it was definitely not a mist but micro bubbles . The LPS and some birdsnests slimmed a lot but love to get the mist .
Couple of issues are - I don't have enough sump space clearence infront of the return pump. Don't know how to show you @Cruz_Arias . Will try and take a video of the mist to get your thoughts.
As of now, the Luft pump is running at maximum power and the check valve is completely open.
If I reduce the power in the pump or close the valve, the bubble generation reduces for the wooden airstone.

Second issue is with the return with seaswirl where I think I need to use a reducer or an eductor .

Thinking out loud, is it possible to place the wooden airstone under a Tunze pump which can chop the bubbles inside the tank itself ?

Will try and show my bubble generation video to get more of your thoughts .

My bubbles actually looked pretty similar to this :-



But am looking for mist as I believe these were not micro-nano bubbles.

Regards,
Abhishek

Pull the air diffuser further AWAY from the return pump inlet. This will allow for finer bubbles being allowed to reach the pump and be distributed to the dt.

Over a few hours (and without filter socks) the micro nanos will recirculate throughout the system. They add up over time.

It's not immediately apparent but try running it while your awake, then check back in a couple of hours. You'll notice tiny tiny tiny bubbles just swirling around with the current. The bubbles should be smaller than the period at the end of this sentence.

 

[Abhishek]

Pull the air diffuser further AWAY from the return pump inlet. This will allow for finer bubbles being allowed to reach the pump and be distributed to the dt.

Over a few hours (and without filter socks) the micro nanos will recirculate throughout the system. They add up over time.

It's not immediately apparent but try running it while your awake, then check back in a couple of hours. You'll notice tiny tiny tiny bubbles just swirling around with the current. The bubbles should be smaller than the period at the end of this sentence.

Should I fiddle with the needle valve ? Keep it all open or close it half way down ?

Regards,
Abhishek

 

[Cruz_Arias]

Should I fiddle with the needle valve ? Keep it all open or close it half way down ?

Regards,
Abhishek

I would double check the control valve on the luft pump and dial it to 90% open only.

Then with the air line valve, start from 0% then slowly crack the valve open. This allows for pressure to build up in the air line first.

Some people even zip tie around the barbed fittings to ensure a good leak proof seal around these connection points to prevent air/air pressure from leaking.

Lastly, try the Oceanic wooden air stone...
They utilize a harder wood which produces finer bubbles than the LEES wooden air diffuser.

 

[Abhishek]

@Cruz_Arias - well followed most your advice .

Here's pic 1and 2 of how little bubbles are coming out when the airdrome placed right infront of the pump ..





here's how when it's placed 2-3 inches away ...




nothing like fog or mist .

What do u suggest?

Regards,
Abhishek

 

[Cruz_Arias]

If you have a nozzle, angle it down a bit (angled down at about 15° to 20°)... the bubbles are finer in pictures 3 and 4... but yes, you will need to increase the back pressure (similar to that of a car) in order to squeeze the bubbles smaller.

But 3 and 4 look correct. Over time (a few hours), the bubbles (very fine ones) add up and creates the fog look...

Since you have a very light bio load, you don't need the aggressive deep cleaning mode of denser bubble generation.

 

[Abhishek]

Thanks @Cruz_Arias ..
Will get a lock line ..
how to do deep cleaning ?

Regards,
Abhishek

 

[Cruz_Arias]

Thanks @Cruz_Arias ..
Will get a lock line ..
how to do deep cleaning ?

Regards,
Abhishek

Just increase the air volume slightly.
You might have received a "not so good" wooden diffuser.

That's typically a manufacturing issue.

This back pressure spray bar also shows how micro-nanos are more efficiently generated...

 

[Preme]

I've had some very good result from this on my last tank. It was a sumpless SPS tank and although my levels were very good for being sumpless I noticed after I tried this that it certainly did help drop the nitrates from a 10 to a 5 and help with growth. I willing for sure being using this on my upcoming build which will again be a sumpless SPS tank.

 

[Cruz_Arias]

I've had some very good result from this on my last tank. It was a sumpless SPS tank and although my levels were very good for being sumpless I noticed after I tried this that it certainly did help drop the nitrates from a 10 to a 5 and help with growth. I willing for sure being using this on my upcoming build which will again be a sumpless SPS tank.

Very very cool! Keep us posted please!