Moonshiners method feedback

[rtparty]

From what I have gathered after reading Andre's responses to other people, RMS is not based on whether the ICP says an element is elevated or not. What Andre asks you to do is use the ICP tests that he recommends because he trusts how those tests are set up, run, maintained and calibrated. Once you have the results from those tests he asks that you enter those results into HIS calculator to decide if an element is OK, low or high. He doesn't use the ICP recommendations for those results.

So, your findings will only tell you results of how those identical samples were calculated using different machines with different algorithms run by different people of different education/skill levels. None of your findings will have anything to do with RMS. Now, if two people use these results (Say one from ICP Analysis and one from Oceamo) simultaneously in the RMS calculator they will get different recommendations. This is why Andre recommend everyone only use the three (Triton, ATI and Oceamo) and he further recommends Oceamo as his preferred. I believe this is because he has worked with them to develop a lot of this stuff.

I fully understand how Andre and RMS use ICP and that you don't use the recommendations from each company. That is not my goal in "testing" each company.

It is to test "how consistent are they" and can they be trusted. If you send two identical samples to each lab and they don't match up (each company independently) then it gives a serious lack of confidence. I won't compare company A to company B for example. I am testing how does company A test sample 1 and sample 2. How does company B test sample 1 and 2. And so forth. I already know the answer for a couple of the labs and it is not promising in any way.

 

[ReefDreamz]

ICP companies will never agree. Way too many variables and none of them are providing solid data showing benchmarks and calibration data with every test. They can’t.

This is one (there are many) of the biggest holes in the RM method that they will not admit to. Today, Oceamo is the “best” and “most accurate” ICP company. Yesterday, it was ATI. Before that it was likely Triton or whoever Andre started with. Tomorrow? Might be Oceamo still. Might change yet again.

It may very well be that Oceamo is reliable and accurate. They are the only company providing any calibration data on here or anywhere else. Props to them for that.

After the holidays I will be releasing my findings from sending multiple identical samples to some of these ICP companies. Your experience is not isolated

Like many things in reefing the RM method isn't about exact concentrations but is about the delta in that concentration from ICP to the next ICP. The goal of the method is to replenish the elements as they are consumed and avoid any crazy high or low concentrations. The accuracy of the ICP test doesn't really matter but the precision does matter. If you wanted to show a "hole" in the method you'd send the same ICP company five samples of the identical water and see how well they all match. Sending samples to multiple ICP companies isn't really relevant in context with the RM method as it's not really about accuracy.

 

[d2mini]

My thinking is just pick an ICP test (Oceamo for me) and stick with it. Should be pretty consistent, test to test and that's what matters.

 

[rtparty]

If you wanted to show a "hole" in the method you'd send the same ICP company five samples of the identical water and see how well they all match.

This is exactly what my plan is. But just 2 tests for each since funds are limited.

One of the many holes in the RM method is “Can ICP be accurate and reliable enough to tell the difference between 1ppb and 2ppb?” And “Do the corals really care if it’s 2ppb instead of 1ppb?”

The proponents of RM will argue to the death that we MUST know for sure that element X is 1-3ppb. The ranges are super small on many elements. Yet, if you ask WHY, not one can answer that. Could it be that the range should be between 1-20ppb instead? Can we achieve that range without sending off monthly $85 tests and dosing $50-100 of elements every month?

In short, how important is that range and can ICP even detect that range accurately and reliably enough?

 

[rtparty]

My thinking is just pick an ICP test (Oceamo for me) and stick with it. Should be pretty consistent, test to test and that's what matters.

“Should be” are the important words here because testing so far doesn’t indicate any of them are but I’m excited to see more tests come back. Oceamo might be the one that is consistent enough after all. I certainly know which aren’t

 

[Reefahholic]

OCEAMO will always be my preferred lab. I do not see anybody competing with him at the same price range and quality.

 

[Reefahholic]

@Randy Holmes-Farley see above. Christopher is a honest guy and skilled at his job.

 

[DanyL]

Well, depends on where you live Ocemao can be the most expensive and inaccessible option unavailable for you.
But when it was available and accessible - I can vouch for Christopher and his company, hands down the best experience I had doing ICPs.

So much so that I looked for options to get their test kits shipped to my country directly from them, but shipping is just crazy high for what it is (100 euros shipping, for a single test kit..).

 

[Ernie Mccracken]

Are there guys hooking up 12 dosing pumps to automate this? Or does everyone dose manually?

 

[Dave-T]

Are there guys hooking up 12 dosing pumps to automate this? Or does everyone dose manually?

It depends on your tank how many elements you need to dose daily. I have 6 elements, and yes - I use dosing pumps.

 

[Reefahholic]

Well, depends on where you live Ocemao can be the most expensive and inaccessible option unavailable for you.
But when it was available and accessible - I can vouch for Christopher and his company, hands down the best experience I had doing ICPs.

So much so that I looked for options to get their test kits shipped to my country directly from them, but shipping is just crazy high for what it is (100 euros shipping, for a single test kit..).

Agreed, in some countries it’s very difficult to get elements and ICP tests. In the US we’re blessed with most things, but I do wish OCEAMO was on this side of the pond. It would make our analyses much cheaper.

 

[Reefahholic]

Are there guys hooking up 12 dosing pumps to automate this? Or does everyone dose manually?

I dose manually and it’s pretty easy. Takes me about 2-3 minutes daily. Some feel the need to put everything on a pump. For me it’s more reasonable to dose manually and also much cheaper. I guess if you gave me 4 GHL’s I’d probably automate it just to be more lazy. lol

 

[DanyL]

Agreed, in some countries it’s very difficult to get elements and ICP tests. In the US we’re blessed with most things, but I do wish OCEAMO was on this side of the pond. It would make our analyses much cheaper.

Well, all of our ICP options are in Europe and geographically close to each other, as well as geographically closer to my country than to the US, so I'm honestly a bit baffled by their shipping prices, I see no logical reason why it would be that high.

Oh well, Fauna Marin and Triton it is..

 

[IKD]

I dose manually and it’s pretty easy. Takes me about 2-3 minutes daily. Some feel the need to put everything on a pump. For me it’s more reasonable to dose manually and also much cheaper. I guess if you gave me 4 GHL’s I’d probably automate it just to be more lazy. lol

Same, takes me a couple minutes tops to do it manually

 

[Dave-T]

I did it manually at first but then I had some spare dosing pumps. So....

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Randy Holmes-Farley see above. Christopher is a honest guy and skilled at his job.

I'm aware of Christoph.

 

[Christoph]

Well, depends on where you live Ocemao can be the most expensive and inaccessible option unavailable for you.
But when it was available and accessible - I can vouch for Christopher and his company, hands down the best experience I had doing ICPs.

So much so that I looked for options to get their test kits shipped to my country directly from them, but shipping is just crazy high for what it is (100 euros shipping, for a single test kit..).

Hi DanyL,
where are you based? For most regions we can arrange shipping at much (!) better rates -please get in touch directly.

Best regards,
Christoph

 

[DanyL]

Hi DanyL,
where are you based? For most regions we can arrange shipping at much (!) better rates -please get in touch directly.

Best regards,
Christoph

Hi Christoph,
Thank you for responding back.
I’m based in Israel.

I do already have some test kits on hand, but I sure will contact you when they run out.

I’m not sure how the shipping rates are calculated nor what shipping companies or options are used, but maybe a better approach would be to show multiple shipping options during checkout? Because I know for a fact that I’m not the only one who stumbled upon this.

Thank you.

 

[areefer01]

Agreed, in some countries it’s very difficult to get elements and ICP tests. In the US we’re blessed with most things, but I do wish OCEAMO was on this side of the pond. It would make our analyses much cheaper.

Would it? Look at the various pricing on the kits that are typically recommended. One or two have labs in the US. Sort of difficult to quantify "much cheaper" to be honest.

 

[Epic Aquaculture]

Are there guys hooking up 12 dosing pumps to automate this? Or does everyone dose manually?

Hey Big Ern! We dose 15 elements per day to our systems and we do it manually currently. It takes about 20 minutes per day to dose both systems (a total of 9 tanks running on 2 separate sumps). We do plan to use dosing pumps in the future and are working with a manufacturer who is developing a system specifically for this.