Pressure on False Claim Products

[ptrusk]

“The real answer is that it's Redfield neutral, highly nutritious, superfood powered , pre and probiotic boosted and bacteria balanced.”

Sounds like brewer's yeast. Looks like it too.

 

[MnFish1]

Definitely have a red flag going off with what the Benepets reps are saying about their food.

A user stated you could over feed Benereef and it won’t raise nutrients. The rep responded this as the reason why:

“The real answer is that it's Redfield neutral, highly nutritious, superfood powered , pre and probiotic boosted and bacteria balanced.”

Anyone care to dissect this mystery?

Redfield neutral makes no 'sense'. I mean I see what they are trying to claim - but - Seems like a highly doubtful claim - and considering all of the questions about Redfield - I would say its not a great reason to feed a food. Redfield is a ratio. So - plug in any numbers you want for (C:N - P). Aquarists do not measure these elements on their own - so right there is a significant problem.

For example let's say the supposed 'good ratio' is "106:16:1". So if the nitrate is 160 and the PO4 is 10 - that fits the ratio - but it's not going to fit into a successful reef tank IMHO.

 

[Borat]

Probiotic redfield

 

[MnFish1]

Redfield neutral makes no 'sense'. I mean I see what they are trying to claim - but - Seems like a highly doubtful claim - and considering all of the questions about Redfield - I would say its not a great reason to feed a food. Redfield is a ratio. So - plug in any numbers you want for (C:N - P). Aquarists do not measure these elements on their own - so right there is a significant problem.

For example let's say the supposed 'good ratio' is "106:16:1". So if the nitrate is 160 and the PO4 is 10 - that fits the ratio - but it's not going to fit into a successful reef tank IMHO.

FWIW - somehow R2R changes "N" ":" "P" to N

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

it's Redfield neutral

That's a first!!
What, they think they can just toss in the word "Redfield" and that somehow makes them sound LESS stupid???

 

[rtparty]

That's a first!!
What, they think they can just toss in the word "Redfield" and that somehow makes them sound LESS stupid???

I usually know the “level” of hobbyist I’m dealing with when Redfield gets thrown around

 

[AKReefing]

"Redfield neutral, highly nutritious, superfood powered , pre and probiotic boosted and bacteria balanced."

Why do those TV medical disclaimers come to mind when I see this? You know, "these statements have not been evaluated by the FDA...rare side effects include diabetes, glaucoma, heart attach or death."

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Success!

Jack Kent posted his follow up comments to the experimental thread here:

Experimental testing of Brightwell Boost pH +

How well do hobby alkalinity measurements detect the alkalinity increase from adding Boost pH+ to a saltwater aquarium? I compare the results of the Hanna Checker with the Red Sea and API titration methods. Alkalinity in our aquarium water is usually determined by titration, the addition of...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Maybe we can get Tropic Marin to clean up their confusing advertising on products like All For Reef. It has been confusing folks since AFR came out.

The problem is that in many settings, such as the bottles themselves and at resellers such as BRS, they confusingly (and incorrectly) give alk concentrations as dKH per volume. But dKH is already per unit volume, so correcting it for volumes leads to incorrect and meaningless statements.

For example, the ocean is about 6.5 dKH, whether that is in a 1 mL sample, a 100 L sample, or the entire ocean.

In TM advertising, these are both at BRS, first for powder and second for liquid:

Specifications (per 1,000 mL of mixed solution)

• Carbonate Hardness Concentration: 6,000 dKH
• Calcium Concentration: 43,000 mg Ca

and also

Specifications (per 500 mL)

• Carbonate Hardness Concentration: 2,800 dKH
• Calcium Concentration: 20,000 mg Ca

people have looked at that 2800 dKH and properly interpreted it that the solution is 2800 dKH, when in fact, it certainly is not. It is above 5,000 dKH.

I have asked Lou and/or Hans Werner to comment in the current thread below where it is an issue:

Tropic Marin All for Reef.

Hi everybody. I was thinking of using Tropic Marin's All for Reef for my major and minor trace elements in my DT. Thoughts?

www.reef2reef.com

 

[ingchr1]

Maybe we can get Tropic Marin to clean up their confusing advertising on products like All For Reef. It has been confusing folks since AFR came out...

Add to the list the NP product line. While it seems clear and straight forward in their advertising chart, conflicting information exists in printed product instructions and media (e.g. videos and TM forum posts).

I started a thread on one question I had, but it only leads to more questions.

If: "The 10:1 ratio (sic) is only important at low phosphate concentrations below 0.1 ppm."

Then why do they state this in their Elimi-NP Application and Dosage instructions: "With a nitrate-phosphate ratio greater than 10:1, we recommend the use of Tropic Marin® NP-Bacto-Balance rather than Tropic Marin® Elimi-NP, to best adjust the nutrient concentrations."

You would not be using Elimi-NP if your phosphate concertation is below 0.1ppm, per the advertising chart:

 

[Pod_01]

Add to the list the NP product line. While it seems clear and straight forward in their advertising chart, conflicting information exists in printed product instructions and media (e.g. videos and TM forum posts).

I started a thread on one question I had, but it only leads to more questions.

If: "The 10:1 ratio (sic) is only important at low phosphate concentrations below 0.1 ppm."

Then why do they state this in their Elimi-NP Application and Dosage instructions: "With a nitrate-phosphate ratio greater than 10:1, we recommend the use of Tropic Marin® NP-Bacto-Balance rather than Tropic Marin® Elimi-NP, to best adjust the nutrient concentrations."

You would not be using Elimi-NP if your phosphate concertation is below 0.1ppm, per the advertising chart:

Hmmm… I see number of recommendations, no false claims.
But I might be missing something…

It might be case where less recommendations might be preferred!!!

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Hmmm… I see number of recommendations, no false claims.
But I might be missing something…

It might be case where less recommendations might be preferred!!!

Huh?

 

[Pod_01]

Huh?

Huh?
The original thread if about “False Claims”.
Post 370 seems to be about recommendation that TM makes on what product to use, not false claims that TM makes.

Perhaps the recommendation are confusing or too many.

But I might be interpreting it wrong…

 

[KStatefan]

The problem is that in many settings, such as the bottles themselves and at resellers such as BRS, they confusingly (and incorrectly) give alk concentrations as dKH per volume. But dKH is already per unit volume, so correcting it for volumes leads to incorrect and meaningless statements.

I think has a whole units are taken for granted not just in this hobby. dKH/L seems to be common and adding units to specific gravity I see from companies that should know it is incorrect.

 

[ingchr1]

Huh?
The original thread if about “False Claims”.
Post 370 seems to be about recommendation that TM makes on what product to use, not false claims that TM makes.

Perhaps the recommendation are confusing or too many.

But I might be interpreting it wrong…

My post was adding additional context to this in Randy's post, which I quoted.

Maybe we can get Tropic Marin to clean up their confusing advertising on products like All For Reef. It has been confusing folks since AFR came out...

If there are conflicting recommendations, maybe some of those recommendations aren't quite accurate. Much like the alkalinity concentrations brought up in that post. Which is also not necessarily a "false claim".

 

[Pod_01]

My post was adding additional context to this in Randy's post, which I quoted.

If there are conflicting recommendations, maybe some of those recommendations aren't quite accurate. Much like the alkalinity concentrations brought up in that post. Which is also not necessarily a "false claim".

To me false claims are 1) increase pH without increasing Alk. 2) stating incorrect Alk concentration. Things that are claimed but not true or cannot be true or cannot be proven to be true.

Recommendations on the other hand do not make claims.

In your particular example TM states how to use a product and what product to use. Perhaps they should clear up the English translation.

In my opinion TM carbon dosing is complicated, they do have max limit on doses, they allow you to mix the types but if you use TM Amino-organic or Zootonic the maximum dose needs to be adjusted.
So I can definitely understand how one can get lost in TM carbon dosing selection. These days I only use the TM NP BB, otherwise it feels like I am overthinking the carbon dosing.

Just my opinion,

 

[ingchr1]

...In your particular example TM states how to use a product and what product to use. Perhaps they should clear up the English translation....

I'm not sure it's a translation issue. What they put out in various mediums (advertisements, product instructions, videos and forum posts) conflicts with each other at times.

The incorrect AFR Alkalinity concentration could be a translation issue on the other hand. From the other thread:

As you all know, I am not a chemist, and I never pretend to be one! So I am not the best company person to answer this quesiton. It looks to me as it the word "concentration" is incorectly be used. I think this refers, in some way, to the total amount of alkalinity contained in the full volume of the liquid in the bottle. The numbers work out pretty closely if you look at it that way. This may. very well have been a translation error. We try to catch them all, but sometimes they "slip through". I appraciate you all pointing this out and I will be speaking with the team in Germany about this. Obviously, it will take some time for us to get the products with corrected labeling inot the US market. But we will correct the error.

...In my opinion TM carbon dosing is complicated, they do have max limit on doses, they allow you to mix the types but if you use TM Amino-organic or Zootonic the maximum dose needs to be adjusted.
So I can definitely understand how one can get lost in TM carbon dosing selection. These days I only use the TM NP BB, otherwise it feels like I am overthinking the carbon dosing....

Agree, and those dosing adjustments and mixing of various products aren't necessarily documented in any formal printed instructions.

 

[Lou Ekus]

In reading through this thread, I am working hard to understand what the exact quesiotns are in realtion tot he carbon dosing progam. Tropic Marin tries to simplify this program by saying simply: with a PO4 below 0.03 ppm use PLUS NP, with a PO4 between 0.03 ppm and 0.10 ppm use NP BACTO Balance, and with a PO4 above 0.10 ppm use ELIMI NP. The other two products can be used with any of these. Granted, I have come to like thresholds a little higher than these original numbers (more like 0.05 ppm, 0.15 ppm and then above). But the system should not be complicated. If any of you have specific quesiotns about this system, or how to use it in relation to your specific system, please feel free to give me a call in the office so I can go through it with you in detail.
The whole subject of the translation errors on istructions is something that I am doing my best to address with Germany. I trust we can resolve those issues and make things more clear.

 

[Pod_01]

In reading through this thread, I am working hard to understand what the exact quesiotns are in realtion tot he carbon dosing progam. Tropic Marin tries to simplify this program by saying simply: with a PO4 below 0.03 ppm use PLUS NP, with a PO4 between 0.03 ppm and 0.10 ppm use NP BACTO Balance, and with a PO4 above 0.10 ppm use ELIMI NP. The other two products can be used with any of these. Granted, I have come to like thresholds a little higher than these original numbers (more like 0.05 ppm, 0.15 ppm and then above). But the system should not be complicated. If any of you have specific quesiotns about this system, or how to use it in relation to your specific system, please feel free to give me a call in the office so I can go through it with you in detail.
The whole subject of the translation errors on istructions is something that I am doing my best to address with Germany. I trust we can resolve those issues and make things more clear.

Lou thank you for the comments.
If one uses the chart all is simple:

Perhaps the transition zones require some clarification, do I switch at 0.03 and 0.1 or do I use both products or???

Some of us do get into the weeds/ nuances and things do get bit muddy.

For example Elimi-NP has following statement on nitrate-phosphate ratios:

Selection is no longer based on PO4 concentration, now we should consider the ratio!!!!

If you read through the forums you can find other recommendations / clarification / insights that add additional wrinkles:

The only thing you have to take care of is, that the combined dosage of all three products should not exceed 1 ml per 100 l tank volume per day. If you are aware of possible negative effects of organic carbon dosing like bacterial blooms and oxygen depletion, you may very carefully exceed this maximum recommended dosage later on.

Once you move past the chart things are not exactly black and white.

 

[ingchr1]

Hi @Lou Ekus,

As @Pod_01 stated it is straight forward when looking at the chart, but other information is out there that confuses the matter.

The Elimi-NP Application and Dosage Instructions states the following:

But there is a forum post that states the following:

...This ratio is only important at low phosphate concentrations below 0.1 ppm.

If this ratio is not important when one would be using Elimi-NP, then why is that statement in the instructions?

In the official Application and Dosage Instructions for the carbon dosing line, does it state the combined limits when also dosing other Tropic Marin products and vice versa? Other than the post in this forum, it appears that one would not be aware of this information.

Why do you like the thresholds of 0.05ppm and 0.15ppm vice the thresholds in the chart? Should the official Tropic Marin thresholds be changed to those?

Thank you