Reefers may over-rely on personal experience to accept or reject truth

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You are not alone.

The problem with these one off reports that land on our door step is that we have virtually no way to evaluate their relevance. For example, we have blooms of benthic organisms in our aquaria, but most studies are done with pelagic organisms and under pelagic conditions. The biology of the microorganisms might not even be the same, one being free floating with easy access to nutrients and the other bound in a biofilm with nutrients slowly diffusing to them. Different enzyme systems might be involved in free floating vs biofilm environments. And what does it mean to the aquarium nuisance organism growth that pelagic dinoflagellates kick butt of pelagic diatoms? Is this information even relevant to life in or on a biofilm?

I am not in any way discounting the value of the information and thank the contributor, but I am certainly not caught in the enthusiasm about its potential relevance.

That brings up an even simpler point that is another type of example of misapplication of personal experience: species identification. I'm really not sure how good we are at identifying the species of pests we have, at least when not using a microscope to look closely.

If you have a pest mass of brown stuff, and you do something to get rid of it, it probably matters what that stuff is.

If you assumed it was dinos and it was really cyano, and you then told someone else how to get rid of dinos, the advice may not be appropriate.

 

[sghera64]

I agree with the OP. Critical thinking, enduring curiosity, and the art of dialog are increasingly rare. I'm afraid our current culture of rapid results entices most to go with their gut and move on.

 

[brandon429]

Randy

Are you guilty of the inverse to this thread?


There's a rinse sand post/ should I rinse new sand in tap/ thread out in the new forum

Those are controversial

Should I wash my sand before adding it into my tank?

I just got dry sand (not live) and I'm not sure if I should wash it or not. I've seen some people wash it, but I've also seen people that don't wash it. If I do need to wash it, what is the process of washing it? Also, should I wash it in just tap water or would I have to wash it in salt water?

www.reef2reef.com

1000% of people who do not make work threads using *other people's reefs vs their own* will tell this poster rinsing in tap is bad, and has consequences compared to not rinsing in tap water. i don't feel like I'm making up things to state you'd advise against it

So what if rules a scientist states don't line up one iota with a nine year proof work thread? At what point is stated science fact preventing ideal procedural change in the hobby? How can ironclad science rules ever evolve, if folks comment to pre rinse questions purposefully omitting massive data sets that run opposite to their science?

Can science ever be wrong in a matter? If I take the tap sand rinse thread out to 150 pages of perfect outcome will it eventually replace the notion that tap rinsing is bad? Can any new finding alter that claim, or does it get to stick as a base rule claim forever, no matter how much proof we make to the contrary?


It astonishes me when posters are given advice in the matter to the opposite of massive work threads and if I didn't hop into the discussion to show it to them they'd never see it

It seems like science tries to gatekeep and stop change it doesn't like by deeming anything contrary as anecdotal and not accurate. If I had only 3 bad outcomes in that sand rinse thread of 51 pgs I would shut the thread down/ request it deleted. Many years plus 51 pages plus reefs from every walk of life totally happy with tap rinsing means something to science

 

[elysics]

Randy

Are you guilty of the inverse to this thread?


There's a rinse sand post/ should I rinse new sand in tap/ thread out in the new forum

Those are controversial

Should I wash my sand before adding it into my tank?

I just got dry sand (not live) and I'm not sure if I should wash it or not. I've seen some people wash it, but I've also seen people that don't wash it. If I do need to wash it, what is the process of washing it? Also, should I wash it in just tap water or would I have to wash it in salt water?

www.reef2reef.com

1000% of people who do not make work threads using *other people's reefs vs their own* will tell this poster rinsing in tap is bad, and has consequences compared to not rinsing in tap water. i don't feel like I'm making up things to state you'd advise against it

So what if rules a scientist states don't line up one iota with a nine year proof work thread? At what point is stated science fact preventing ideal procedural change in the hobby? How can ironclad science rules ever evolve, if folks comment to pre rinse questions purposefully omitting massive data sets that run opposite to their science?

Can science ever be wrong in a matter? If I take the tap sand rinse thread out to 150 pages of perfect outcome will it eventually replace the notion that tap rinsing is bad? Can any new finding alter that claim, or does it get to stick as a base rule claim forever, no matter how much proof we make to the contrary?


It astonishes me when posters are given advice in the matter to the opposite of massive work threads and if I didn't hop into the discussion to show it to them they'd never see it

It seems like science tries to gatekeep and stop change it doesn't like

There is no "tap water". There are homes with perfectly drinkable water coming from the tap, mountain spring quality even, and there are homes where the water coming from the tap tastes like metal, makes you sick, is full of disinfectant, or lights on fire.

So general advice of "tap is fine" is a bit risky.

 

[Garf]

1000%

LOL, in a rant to Randy? funny

 

[Dan_P]

Randy

Are you guilty of the inverse to this thread?


There's a rinse sand post/ should I rinse new sand in tap/ thread out in the new forum

Those are controversial

Should I wash my sand before adding it into my tank?

I just got dry sand (not live) and I'm not sure if I should wash it or not. I've seen some people wash it, but I've also seen people that don't wash it. If I do need to wash it, what is the process of washing it? Also, should I wash it in just tap water or would I have to wash it in salt water?

www.reef2reef.com

1000% of people who do not make work threads using *other people's reefs vs their own* will tell this poster rinsing in tap is bad, and has consequences compared to not rinsing in tap water. i don't feel like I'm making up things to state you'd advise against it

So what if rules a scientist states don't line up one iota with a nine year proof work thread? At what point is stated science fact preventing ideal procedural change in the hobby? How can ironclad science rules ever evolve, if folks comment to pre rinse questions purposefully omitting massive data sets that run opposite to their science?

Can science ever be wrong in a matter? If I take the tap sand rinse thread out to 150 pages of perfect outcome will it eventually replace the notion that tap rinsing is bad? Can any new finding alter that claim, or does it get to stick as a base rule claim forever, no matter how much proof we make to the contrary?


It astonishes me when posters are given advice in the matter to the opposite of massive work threads and if I didn't hop into the discussion to show it to them they'd never see it

It seems like science tries to gatekeep and stop change it doesn't like

I think we need to take what Randy said and put some numbers on what is bound to the sand during tap water rinsing and then figure out what is released to the aquarium when the sand is returned.

I can only speak to phosphate at this point. Sugar sand does not bind that much PO4, coarser sand even less and crushed coral probably even less. Also, the quantity of PO4 bound to sand equilibrates to a certain amount no matter how many times or how long it is washed. Also, unless the amount of water is very large, there may not be enough PO4 to equilibrate the sand to the amount of PO4 measured in the tap water, but rather to some lower value.

I haven’t given you any numbers because I need a rough estimate of how much tap water folks use to wash 1 kg of sand. Then we can close the circle on this by answering the question “so what?” to washing sand in tap water.

The above does not address the question of how much copper or lead bind to sand. I think we can find this number because the use of calcium carbonate to cleanup waste water seems to be very popular.

 

[brandon429]

I always value your perspective for sure

 

[Thales]

Randy

Are you guilty of the inverse to this thread?


There's a rinse sand post/ should I rinse new sand in tap/ thread out in the new forum

Those are controversial

Should I wash my sand before adding it into my tank?

I just got dry sand (not live) and I'm not sure if I should wash it or not. I've seen some people wash it, but I've also seen people that don't wash it. If I do need to wash it, what is the process of washing it? Also, should I wash it in just tap water or would I have to wash it in salt water?

www.reef2reef.com

1000% of people who do not make work threads using *other people's reefs vs their own* will tell this poster rinsing in tap is bad, and has consequences compared to not rinsing in tap water. i don't feel like I'm making up things to state you'd advise against it

I am not Randy, so if you only want his take, please ignore this post.

Terms like '1000%' and 'known facts' (not in this post but was used in the linked thread' are problematic when they are not true. It makes it hard to take any of the post seriously even if there may be good info in there. The first response in that thread says "Folks have just rinsed it with tap water for many years then drain it out." so the 1000% thing seems inflated.

I don't think the 'work threads' I have seen are compelling evidence, and some of the very specific actions suggested in such threads seem to me like make work with uneccessary and scare tactic caveats.

So what if rules a scientist states don't line up one iota with a nine year proof work thread?

Scientist or science? The length of time an idea exists is not necessarily good supporting evidence for the acceptance of the idea. Why should we take the 'nine year proof work thread' as compelling evidence?

At what point is stated science fact preventing ideal procedural change in the hobby?

It depends on how well the 'change in the hobby' idea is supported. 100 page threads are not great evidence, while condensing those 100 page threads into an understandable write up, with supporting documentation, may be. This is what talks and articles and journal publications are for. If you say something like "1000%" or "known facts" you are immediately going to be asked to support those statements, and if that support can't be provided, or, as in this case, they seem incorrect at the outset, it is going to be a hard sell to get folks to read the rest of your ideas.

How can ironclad science rules ever evolve, if folks comment to pre rinse questions purposefully omitting massive data sets that run opposite to their science?

There are no ironclad science rules, that is antithetical to science. Everything in science can change if the evidence is compelling - generating evidence sufficient to change long standing and tested ides is going to be, and is supposed to be difficult. People who tend to fight against 'science' often are fighting straw men, and not anything actually science based.
Do you really have massive data sets that aren't threads? That would be really interesting to look over.

Can science ever be wrong in a matter?

Of course. New information changes previous conclusions all the time. The level of compelling of evidence may be high, but it certainly happens.

If I take the tap sand rinse thread out to 150 pages of perfect outcome will it eventually replace the notion that tap rinsing is bad? Can any new finding alter that claim, or does it get to stick as a base rule claim forever, no matter how much proof we make to the contrary?

I reject idea that 'science' says that rinsing with tap water is bad and think this is a tilting at windmills. There may be concerns about rinsing with tap, but they are generally overcome by a final rinse in 'treated' freshwater or tank water.
It isn't about proof, it is about compelling evidence presented in a way that can get people to change their minds. Please don't mistake disagreement with ignoring - that is a dangerous, unhealthy, and unhelpful direction to go. 150 page threads are impossible to digest, and have often turned out to be unsupported. Arrange your evidence in a digestable way for people to look over, state the problem, show the problem is real, then state how the problem is fixed, and how, and why, with support, and you then have something worth people looking at - they may not agree after reading it, but at least you have given them a way to understand what you are talking about without having to wade through 100's of pages of threads.

It astonishes me when posters are given advice in the matter to the opposite of massive work threads and if I didn't hop into the discussion to show it to them they'd never see it

This is for almost all of reekeeping, and every topic. People still insist on using fish to cycle new tanks. People still insist that high phosphate is a death sentence for animals. People still insist that popping bubble algae releases spores from inside the bubble. Those are 'bad' ideas, yet if you were to look at the massive amount of threads supporting as evidence of their 'truth' you would be forced to think they are true. Lots of folks think lots of things that just aren't supported.

Forums are only as good as those that post, and they are not the end all of reefkeeping knowledge. Many folks who don't post on forums much anymore collectively shake their heads at some of the advice folks given every day on forums.

It seems like science tries to gatekeep and stop change it doesn't like

It isn't about like, and science is a method rather than an entity. Changing 'accepted science' is supposed to, and needs to have a high bar. If it didn't, we would all be running eco aqualizers, reef vital dna, and sea lab 28. Anything in science can change given compelling evidence, but many people take disagreement as gatekeeping when it isn't.

My MACNA talk this year makes what I think is a compelling case for why trying to lower nutrients is an empty and harmful idea. I spent a lot of time putting it together and looking at a lot of reference material, so folks would understand what I am saying - yet I still know that I might be wrong and look forward to folks reaction so we can all try to move forward together. That seems like science to me.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

@brandon429 ,

I think what you're trying to say is exactly what Randy has said multiple different ways.

Facts don't change, our perception and how we perceive them does. Many variables need to be consider with your tap water scenario.
Perhaps on the surface people will think, tapwater has heavy metals and based on that notion, conclude tap is bad, full stop.

Given what we know about tap water it's not far fetched to attach our own biases to that and conclude the same thing. But as Randy has pointed out numerous times, 150 pages of testimonials stating that upon tap water rinsing and tank start up, everything seems normal doesn't shoot down what we conclude about tap at the onset.

So the question becomes, why can we rinse sand with tap water and it not effect inverts at tank start up?

We may conclude that the dilution of what's left in the sand is minor in the grand scheme of things. Perhaps we can say with confidence that a ratio of 1 cup sand to 10 gal of water is the tipping point for success.

Or we may discover that there are more variables that need to be applied to why people are experiencing success with this rinsing method.

None of that is a slap in the face of science, it's more about challenging a method based on a single fact without any other supporting ideas.

 

[brandon429]

SLP


thank you for that perspective. that's reasonable and well said.

Richard, how about you make a macna talk on you running a non sand rinse work thread, out to page fifty. ask for invasion cures, tank transfers, sandbed swaps, don't rinse one entrant.

I 1000% bet you won't/can't.

Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread

If you are reading this thread to cure a tank invasion from a link I sent you, we do not need to identify your type of invasion here we do not need you to test anything at anytime regarding nitrate, phosphate etc Above all, we do not need to see a microscope slide picture of your invasion at...

www.reef2reef.com

if we did not have the work thread, we would not have safe tank transfers and super clean startups that make everyone happy. I noticed you like to delete my comments off your youtube page too/must be nice to get to shape your own narrative all the time.

 

[brandon429]

Richard

Of course you don't think the sand rinse thread is compelling evidence for sand rinsing being safer than not, you don't have skin in the game. I know you work at a public aquarium, if that translated into me getting to see you personally take accountability for this much $$ in other people's reefs I'd value it as relevant to the issue. But I can't see that, I have to just take your word on it, I can't read a single thread of you running proxy reef tanks in a given setting. not one.


remember that time you told me that instant cycle transfers can "expire" when we were discussing reef tank convention cycles? I didn't forget that. you use your clout to try and suppress change.

I have a big work thread showing they "dont" expire and we have 0% cycle losses on hundreds of pages of cycles that use my method, which hasn't been touted from the official podium all click buyers will follow.

what you and I value as proof currency is 1000% polar opposite.

feel free to hop right up on the public podium and denounce what I will spend the next ten years grouping into readable threads around a given theme. I love this type of gradient, when a pro says something doesn't work and then we spend ten years directly showing it does and it's open to read from anyone, anytime, and I don't try and squelch their comments to fit my upcoming script.

Rich Ross: work threads don't work they're made up anecdote, hyperbole, no value, no science.

nerd from the internet who sells cable for a living: posts a 51 page work thread with two million dollars of reef tanks handled in ways the pros said was impossible and not one loss coming or going. give a talk on that.

 

[brandon429]

I'd give anything to listen to a macna talk that reflected on a public work thread the author ran that we could inspect for years, before the talk. I bet we don't get to see that anytime soon, or ever.



I never see authors running work threads, I think it may be scary to deal in the variables they present. it's easy to speak on something you had full control over the variables.


let the record reflect, I have never in my life online reefing for 22 years seen an author or a reef sage run a work thread. dealing with variables live-time is tricky and not getting to control the narrative completely is very scary. you have to actually produce results to survive a work thread.

I hope it's ok to disagree with the ultimate reefing sage.

 

[brandon429]

Randy has said multiple times that rinsing sand in tap water is dangerous, we're not in solid agreement on that. I can understand chemically how it might be, but nothing in the work thread agrees. somehow there are variables unaccounted for that give us those results.

to this day, when someone asks about sand prep rising, that thread above isn't referenced and there also isn't a replacement thread we get to see, it's just squelched/not given to readers as an option. I think that's limiting science in ways that open minds ready to chart evolution of practices wouldn't be doing.

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

Ugh…I swear if I see another newbie, or veteran too, post an quote I have an algae or pest outbreak what should I do question and I see the barrage of rip clean or die posts I’ll have an aneurysm. Rip clean or all your fish will die, your system is failing you must rip clean now it’s the only way, rip rip rip rip rip. I don’t even care what the method is but the posts are way over the top, use scare tactics that a novice that is already panicking doesn’t need to deal with, are actually what I would consider bullying. I’m all for one to share their knowledge, experience and recommendations but the way one goes about it needs to change. As there are so many badges of honor on this site, how about a warning, controversial, or bully badge?

 

[BirdFish5000]

Ugh…I swear if I see another newbie, or veteran too, post an quote I have an algae or pest outbreak what should I do question and I see the barrage of rip clean or die posts I’ll have an aneurysm. Rip clean or all your fish will die, your system is failing you must rip clean now it’s the only way, rip rip rip rip rip. I don’t even care what the method is but the posts are way over the top, use scare tactics that a novice that is already panicking doesn’t need to deal with, are actually what I would consider bullying. I’m all for one to share their knowledge, experience and recommendations but the way one goes about it needs to change. As there are so many badges of honor on this site, how about a warning, controversial, or bully badge?

I agree; it is absolute relentless how that thread gets forcibly injected everywhere, and any sort of questioning of it or disagreement with it gets taken as a personal insult. Seems like more interest in getting attention to his thread than anything else.

 

[elysics]

Of course you don't think the sand rinse thread is compelling evidence for sand rinsing being safer than not, you don't have skin in the game. I know you work at a public aquarium, if that translated into me getting to see you personally take accountability for this much $$ in other people's reefs I'd value it as relevant to the issue. But I can't see that, I have to just take your word on it, I can't read a single thread of you running proxy reef tanks in a given setting. not one.


remember that time you told me that instant cycle transfers can "expire" when we were discussing reef tank convention cycles? I didn't forget that. you use your clout to try and suppress change.

I have a big work thread showing they "dont" expire and we have 0% cycle losses on hundreds of pages of cycles that use my method, which hasn't been touted from the official podium all click buyers will follow.

what you and I value as proof currency is 1000% polar opposite.

feel free to hop right up on the public podium and denounce what I will spend the next ten years grouping into readable threads around a given theme. I love this type of gradient, when a pro says something doesn't work and then we spend ten years directly showing it does and it's open to read from anyone, anytime, and I don't try and squelch their comments to fit my upcoming script.

I am not saying your work thread isn't an achievement, or a bunch of work on your part, but it's definitely not readable. What would be readable is if you edited some post or made a new thread and accumulated the numbers from those 150 pages into neat tables. How many people said they were going to do what you told them, how many did something "wrong", how many people came back and succeeded after doing a particular something wrong, how many came back and succeeded after they did everything right, how many failed or never came back. If possible with links to how the successes look now

 

[brandon429]

ABR


of course it seems that way from the sidelines.

 

[brandon429]

Any arguing with reef sages leads to a ban eventually (for me lol) so I'm going to head back to the main forum where I can simply log my jobs.

You guys can back pat as long as you want here, I know for a fact I won't be seeing you in the public work trenches, that's left for us-folks who manage work threads and tank owners seeking a positive change in their reef.

no matter how left field and preachy this thread gets, every single day I'll get new messages for tank transfers and cycle works and we'll simply be adding to the threads as we've done for years. podium experts + recent join ups can try and convince the masses these techniques dont work as long as they have wind; the threads will show otherwise and procedural fact will eventually win out based on logged, observable pattern around a given core subject or theme.

ABR, nobody is asking you to fix their reef or cycle it, so you don't have to worry about producing a better method. sideline critiques are a very very safe perspective for typing.

 

[Thales]

SLP


thank you for that perspective.

You are welcome. If you took any of it to heart, mostly the parts about presenting your ideas and not taking disgareemt as ignorance, that would be great.

Richard, how about you make a macna talk on you running a non sand rinse work thread, out to page fifty. I 1000% bet you won't/can't.

That is a weird challange, but that is really just gathering testimonials. I can give you my non rinsing testimonials now:
• I added a couple bags of wet 'bioactive' sand to one of the tanks in my system a month or two ago. No rinsing. No problems. Acro's then spawned twice, on schedule, and the planua have settled.
• I added 4 other bags 6 months or a year ago, no rinsing, no problems.
• At the PA I worked at, I added the same kind of sand to my tanks, no rinsing, nmany times, no problems.
• We added 3 or 4 pallets fo the same sand to the 200,000 gallon reef, no rinsing, no problem.

Pretty sure we could easily get that past page 50, but by your own admission 95% of the time (which is of course another not supported number) there will be no problem with not rinsing sand, so this all feels like a tempest in teapot.

Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread

If you are reading this thread to cure a tank invasion from a link I sent you, we do not need to identify your type of invasion here we do not need you to test anything at anytime regarding nitrate, phosphate etc Above all, we do not need to see a microscope slide picture of your invasion at...

www.reef2reef.com

if we did not have the work thread, we would not have safe tank transfers and super clean startups that make everyone happy.

Sure we would. Folks were doing that before you came along. Forums are not the whole world of reefkeeping.

I noticed you like to delete my comments off your youtube page too/must be nice to get to shape your own narrative all the time.

I don't moderate that youtube page, and don't always read the comments, but one of our mandates is not to give a platform for nonsense so, if you posted stuff that was or seemed like nonsense, I would not be suprised if it was removed. Or if it was agro, I would not be suprised if it was removed. But, like I say that is someone else's call, and I don't think youtube comments are very important.
Every page, every youtube, every reef forum is about shaping narrative, so this seems like another tempest in a teapot. You shape your own narrative all the time - the post I am responding to is you shaping your narrative by challanging me to do something as if my not doing it somehow legitimizes your perspective.

Hope you had a great holiday!

 

[BirdFish5000]

People are just suggesting how to improve the work you are doing. That's all.