The ethics of quarantining and and prophylactically medicating (or not)

[Dburr1014]

I am also split on this.
I buy my fish from my LFS. I know he runs copper in the fish systems. I will always ask "how long have you had the fish", if it is less than three weeks, I pass. The fish isn't showing any signs of disease by then then it's probably fine. I might put it in a separate system for a week or two depending on the fish.

 

[Chrisv.]

This is the same for me, I never qted a fish and probably never will unless I take the shot and grab an Achilles. My LFS qts every month or so, my most recent purchase from there was a flashing tilefish. The salinity was the same so I just floated and dropped him in, while he went through some stress settling in, he came out and ate within 3 days. This was back in December and he actually becomes 1 month established on Christmas Day. I have a CBB, Radiant wrasse, Twinspot bristletooth tang, Swallowtail Angel and now the tilefish as my “Hard” to care for fish and all of them were put straight into the tank. I haven’t had any outbreaks to this day, and they all went in with minimal stress. I QTed once and that was with melafix on my healthy Genicanthus Angel to help heal an ulcer. I find QT is good but if the fish is sensitive I would only QT it if it was something like velvet or ich because I think QT adds unneeded stress onto a sensitive fish (Hence why I would never want to personally QT a femininus wrasse or Achilles tang).

Yes I understand you want to take caution but,
Here’s my question:
Would you QT a fish that is completely healthy and loose it due to QT ontop of it entering a brand new environment that probably doesn’t give it everything it truly needs? If you buy a fish with a disease then if I’m honest that’s your own fault, you should know what a healthy fish or animal looks like instead of buying a fish that has clear signs of ich and is on the brink of death anyway. IMO if you buy a fish on the brink of death, qt is the final line to kill it. Sensitive fish and things with copper in tend to leave the fish under serious harm.
a QT tank won’t have the proper fauna for a fish to thrive and naturally eat from whereas a DT tank will. If you’re that scared of disease surely you’d rather stick to thick slime coated fish and avoid things like the tangs?

I don’t mean to start a huge argument, this is just my counter to why QT a fish.
By far I think that the most controversial subject is “Why is is good to quarantine” or “Why should we/should we not quarantine”

People love to say that it would simply be impossible for a LFS to qt their fish. I'm not sure what that even means. My LFSs all get fish in on Friday and sell out on Sunday. I guess the business model is to pass on the shipping losses to the customer.

There are stores like yours @i cant think, and they manage to thrive. In the DC area there was a store that did a multi week medicated qt on all fish. The guy charged more than the competition, but everyone knew that fish from him would be healthy, conditioned to aquarium life, and would survive. He up and running for like 15 years before he retired.

It really annoys me when people say a store couldn't possibly qt. Makes me think I'm talking with a LFS owner!

 

[Sean_B]

" Then it hit me, where the heck is Bob putting all these dang fish"

Lesson;

"Don't be Bob"

 

[i cant think]

Lesson;

"Don't be Bob"

Yeah haha, it’s a shame we have a limit to our tanks but it’s good to have that at the same time.

I am also split on this.
I buy my fish from my LFS. I know he runs copper in the fish systems. I will always ask "how long have you had the fish", if it is less than three weeks, I pass. The fish isn't showing any signs of disease by then then it's probably fine. I might put it in a separate system for a week or two depending on the fish.

This is similar to how I feel when it comes to QT, everyone has good reasons as to why they do qt and why they don’t. I just do it to try reduce stress and have the fish eating some form of natural food in the main tank.

 

[polyppal]

People love to say that it would simply be impossible for a LFS to qt their fish. I'm not sure what that even means. My LFSs all get fish in on Friday and sell out on Sunday. I guess the business model is to pass on the shipping losses to the customer.

There are stores like yours @i cant think, and they manage to thrive. In the DC area there was a store that did a multi week medicated qt on all fish. The guy charged more than the competition, but everyone knew that fish from him would be healthy, conditioned to aquarium life, and would survive. He up and running for like 15 years before he retired.

It really annoys me when people say a store couldn't possibly qt. Makes me think I'm talking with a LFS owner!

The LFS business model is horrible already, to properly QT a fish and ensure it was disease free before sell would take several weeks/tons of observation/dedicated systems with careful dosing/testing of medications, etc. I doubt his LFS does anything close to that, like many shops they prob put the fish in a therapeutic dose of copper on arrival and call it ‘quarantined’ when it sells 3-4 days later…

There’s no way a LFS could do all that for a $15 Percula and turn a profit, specialty online Iivestock suppliers like TSM can (and charge a premium price for it) but the local shop is where people go when they want something ‘right now’ and ‘cheap’.

 

[Chrisv.]

The LFS business model is horrible already, to properly QT a fish and ensure it was disease free before sell would take several weeks/tons of observation/dedicated systems with careful dosing/testing of medications, etc. I doubt his LFS does anything close to that, like many shops they prob put the fish in a therapeutic dose of copper on arrival and call it ‘quarantined’ when it sells 3-4 days later…

There’s no way a LFS could do all that for a $15 Percula and turn a profit, specialty online Iivestock suppliers like TSM can (and charge a premium price for it) but the local shop is where people go when they want something ‘right now’ and ‘cheap’.

I think the TSM pricing structure is great! I'd be happy to pay TSM prices if my LFS offered TSM level QT. I think most of the people in my local reef club would be happy to pay them too. I'd much rather buy a fish in person, which is why I don't just buy everything from TSM and tell my LFS they are out of luck.

 

[KonradTO]

If we speak about ethics... we should also try to get fish from reputable sources where fish is checked for pests and kept properly. Then QT I guess it is not necessary anymore. For space/financial/wife-killing-me reasons I never QTed a fish (for years with freshwater, for 6 months with saltwater) and following the rule of not buying fish from LFS where they don't look kept properly I never had a problem (until now..).
Also I don't get why we should be the ones responsible for QT when shops can simply be more careful/responsible. They make money out of nature, the least would be to respect it and keep it properly.

 

[polyppal]

If we speak about ethics... we should also try to get fish from reputable sources where fish is checked for pests and kept properly. Then QT I guess it is not necessary anymore. For space/financial/wife-killing-me reasons I never QTed a fish (for years with freshwater, for 6 months with saltwater) and following the rule of not buying fish from LFS where they don't look kept properly I never had a problem (until now..).
Also I don't get why we should be the ones responsible for QT when shops can simply be more careful/responsible. They make money out of nature, the least would be to respect it and keep it properly.

Yeah sadly fish are treated as ‘disposable’ pets that people give little thought to. Some of my friends think it’s crazy id spend $300 on a fish, and don’t see the connection of me comparing it to their $3000 designer puppy… Many don’t view them as sentient, equating any fish to a .25 petsmart goldfish & thinking since they are ‘cheap’ and have a ‘short lifespan’ who cares if it dies - just go buy another one \o/

The entire aquarium trade industry is rooted in profit, they could care less about animal welfare. Much cheaper/easier to catch 100 fish and 50 die rather than catch 50 and take really good care of them…

I doubt the welfare aspect of the hobby will ever outweigh the $$$, though as more wild fisheries shut down and captive bred fish become more prevalent they do at least seem to be heartier/healthier

 

[flyfisher2]

If we speak about ethics... we should also try to get fish from reputable sources where fish is checked for pests and kept properly. Then QT I guess it is not necessary anymore. For space/financial/wife-killing-me reasons I never QTed a fish (for years with freshwater, for 6 months with saltwater) and following the rule of not buying fish from LFS where they don't look kept properly I never had a problem (until now..).
Also I don't get why we should be the ones responsible for QT when shops can simply be more careful/responsible. They make money out of nature, the least would be to respect it and keep it properly.

Did you do the Black Friday event at your LFS, I did?
I stood in line behind close to 50 people and I was there an hour before they opened.
The first guy camped out over night!
Once all was done I came home with snails and frozen fish food!
The fish prices were through the roof but then you got 30% off.
Well let me see, if I buy a Flame Angel that’s priced at $150 and take 30% off that’s $105.00
But wait it was $100 three weeks ago!
Not to mention the fish don’t look that great.
There’s 100 people in the place and I don’t think they’d want me to pull out my folding chair and watch the fish to see if it’s eating.

 

[flyfisher2]

Did you do the Black Friday event at your LFS, I did?
I stood in line behind close to 50 people and I was there an hour before they opened.
The first guy camped out over night!
Once all was done I came home with snails and frozen fish food!
The fish prices were through the roof but then you got 30% off.
Well let me see, if I buy a Flame Angel that’s priced at $150 and take 30% off that’s $105.00
But wait it was $100 three weeks ago!
Not to mention the fish don’t look that great.
There’s 100 people in the place and I don’t think they’d want me to pull out my folding chair and watch the fish to see if it’s eating.

Another story,
Bob’s friend. Not me, some other guy!
He walks in with his wife and does the initial round checking out all the tanks.
Comes back to what he wants and finally decides on this chunky Green Mandarin that’s kept in the invert system because they don’t handle the ‘therapeutic copper’ very well.
So he stands in front the tank and is observing the fish closely…
Up comes the clerk with fish box and dips the Mandarin out and walks away!
what the heck just happened?
There’s Bob at the register pulling out more credit cards to pay…

 

[Rocketfish]

It is a sad thought to think we would attempt to justify one method versus another by way of "Ethics". The reason I say that is because if it is an "Ethics" issue then by that justification, one perspective is ethically correct and all others, in essence, wrong or unethical.

I believe pulling this issue into an "Ethical debate" is unhealthy and divisive. It is obvious with the posts so far that people are aggressively on one side or the other. but ask yourself, is this really an "Ethics" problem?

Each person's situation is justifiably different. Those that choose to quarantine, Kudos to you, and well done! For those who do not, we all know we are rolling the dice with that method, and more often than not we get away with no losses or minimal losses. If there is a major loss then perhaps that is justification to reexamine how we personally do things.

Any time we throw down the "Ethics" card though, it sounds like we are essentially saying, "I'm better than you, and you don't deserve to have what you have." No one on this list is like that of course, on either side of the issue!

Can I make recommendations? Yes.
Can I make very strong recommendations based on my own experience? Yes.
Should I make demands that everyone does things exactly the way I do it? No.

For the new guy starting out it's already like trying to take a sip from a firehose. Add "X"# of days in quarantine and the expense of setting up a second system to do that might just blow them out of the hobby if it is a mandated process. If however we communicate the risks and let the person decide what level of risk they are willing to accept, then I believe we are serving the hobby and our own compulsion to share what we have learned over time to be most frugal with livestock and dollars.

 

[RDK63]

I actually think the whole script should be flipped. I think retailers have an ethical responsibility to qt fish before selling them to us. They should only sell clean healthy tank conditioned fish. I'm willing to pay the premium. I just think that hobby grade qt is often botched anyway. Sometimes that means fish die in qt, sometimes it just means that parasites still make it into the system.

But seriously, why on earth do we tolerate this level of service? As consumers we should demand better.

I agree. Buy a pet and before you get it from the supplier it is treated for disease( Dogs, Cats etc..) . Preventative medications. You are not told to QT your new pet and if it dies , its your fault. Yes, we would have to pay more for the Supplier QT. However, what does it cost you if a sick animal crashes your entire DT system? How many LFS get a live animal in stock, throw it on display and sell it immediately? Or even worse add some meds to hid any illness just long enough for you to buy it and bring home ? QT or not, it dies within a few days in QT or your DT and its your fault and loss? Meanwhile , they are selling animals to the next person who walks in the door. I have one LFS that i have seen goes through a very planned out QT system before having bringing animals out front for sale. There is nothing full proof but does better than I could ever QT new animals. Yes there is a possibly to crash my tank, yes it costs more to purchase these animals. However , i believe its best for the animal itself, the purchaser and the supplier. Its so sad that suppliers sell animals and then put all the failure on the purchaser of what they sold without any remorse.

 

[polyppal]

I don’t know the last time I bought a fish at a LFS, IME they are no healthier than buying directly online, cost more, and don’t come with the limited live arrival ‘warranty’ you get with most online shops. Fishwise, theyre pretty much just a middle man

 

[i cant think]

One issue I find with copper dosing is, if you have a tilefish, mandarin or something as sensitive as they are and you dose copper, that fish is almost certainly going to have an issue with it. Sensitive fish and copper just shouldn’t be done IMO, give me a few minutes to search the many threads I have about trying to find information on the flashing tilefish (This was in the week I had to research before I came home with him).

 

[Reeflier]

Keeping salt fish for 40 years, I have never quarantined—but I have also paid the price and had a complete tank wipeout (except for 2 clowns) from some stock that looked very healthy in the store and ate first day. Now that I’m moving to reef and doing a completely new setup, I am not willing to take that chance—I will quarantine from now on. However, I’m also not willing to do what is necessary to do it myself (and I have studied & read up on the correct process). I will pay the price to buy quarantined fish.

But if we’re talking about ethics here, is it “ethical” to not quarantine and bring a disease into the tank and kill other "innocent" healthy livestock in the tank? Do they not deserve care and ethics toward their defense and wellbeing? My thoughts are that, if we’re going to have this hobby and catch fish to live in our homes/offices, it is more ethical to put a new fish through a little stress of medicated quarantine and thus protect the lives of all the other livestock in the tank, than to roll the dice and nonchalantly dump fish into the tank and hope for the best. I still feel deep shame and guilt for doing that and killing almost all my beloved fishes, many of which I’d had for 15 years. I won’t do that again.

 

[i cant think]

Keeping salt fish for 40 years, I have never quarantined—but I have also paid the price and had a complete tank wipeout (except for 2 clowns) from some stock that looked very healthy in the store and ate first day. Now that I’m moving to reef and doing a completely new setup, I am not willing to take that chance—I will quarantine from now on. However, I’m also not willing to do what is necessary to do it myself (and I have studied & read up on the correct process). I will pay the price to buy quarantined fish.

But if we’re talking about ethics here, is it “ethical” to not quarantine and bring a disease into the tank and kill other "innocent" healthy livestock in the tank? Do they not deserve care and ethics toward their defense and wellbeing? My thoughts are that, if we’re going to have this hobby and catch fish to live in our homes/offices, it is more ethical to put a new fish through a little stress of medicated quarantine and thus protect the lives of all the other livestock in the tank, than to roll the dice and nonchalantly dump fish into the tank and hope for the best. I still feel deep shame and guilt for doing that and killing almost all my beloved fishes, many of which I’d had for 15 years. I won’t do that again.

Disease can easily get into the tanks, just with rock and coral it can still get in there. Even live sand can drag ich into an aquarium. Lets not just think that ich is only on fish. Also, again what about the fish that will easily die just by going through copper? I still can’t find the comment but I remember it was something about copper burning the gills of fish like mandarins and tilefish. Again, this is why I don’t QT, both stress (Let’s face it “little” is nothing when it comes to stress even a little stress can kill a fish quite easily) and sensitivity.

 

[Rocketfish]

Keeping salt fish for 40 years, I have never quarantined—but I have also paid the price and had a complete tank wipeout (except for 2 clowns) from some stock that looked very healthy in the store and ate first day. Now that I’m moving to reef and doing a completely new setup, I am not willing to take that chance—I will quarantine from now on. However, I’m also not willing to do what is necessary to do it myself (and I have studied & read up on the correct process). I will pay the price to buy quarantined fish.

But if we’re talking about ethics here, is it “ethical” to not quarantine and bring a disease into the tank and kill other "innocent" healthy livestock in the tank? Do they not deserve care and ethics toward their defense and wellbeing? My thoughts are that, if we’re going to have this hobby and catch fish to live in our homes/offices, it is more ethical to put a new fish through a little stress of medicated quarantine and thus protect the lives of all the other livestock in the tank, than to roll the dice and nonchalantly dump fish into the tank and hope for the best. I still feel deep shame and guilt for doing that and killing almost all my beloved fishes, many of which I’d had for 15 years. I won’t do that again.

If it really is about ethics then you are better than me and I don't deserve what I have because I am "unethical" in how I go about caring for my reef/fish.

I don't think that is the essential message you intend to send, so I would say that based on your experience, you strongly suggest it is worth setting up and operating a quarantine or paying the quarantined price. So you don't suffer the heartbreak of loss later on.

So again, is this really an "ethics" question?

It's like asking if it's ethical for a sick person to spread a virus they may or may not know they have. Now there is a can of worms for ya!

 

[i cant think]

I think possibly the worst question you could put on the table is anything to do with QT, it’s always comments going against eachother unfortunately and you almost never get a straight answer by the end of it. Usually its 75% QT to 25% Not QT and IMO it just depends on the fish, as I said would you put a fish you KNOW is sensitive to Copper under QT with copper just to have its life span shorted by a bunch. This is often why many of the tilefish get a bad wrap for care, because they die off for “no reason” if you look into their past QT experience usually you’ll find they have been through Copper which is most likely the reason it died within a month or two of being in your tank.

 

[Justin_Reef]

Every single time these threads come up, it's the same thing; people want to justify whatever it is they already do. I have my doubts that very many people change their mind on QT. Until they kill off an entire tank by adding one sick fish. Even then, I have my doubts most people will do anything different the next time.

People want instant gratification.

I should copy and paste from another thread but....

I QT now because I lost some very old fish that I cared about after I introduced internal parasites and velvet to my display. This was after 10+ years of never QTing. Actually, I did QT sometimes, but fish would often die in QT because I had no idea what I was doing.

My current QT is a 40G breeder with HOB filter, live rock, sand, ect. It's always running. Fish go there for a month or two, then into the display if nothing comes up. If something like internal parasites show up, I treat in the QT. If ich comes up, I use hypo in the QT, but if that doesn't work (hypo is not always reliable, but I always try it first, I find it works 75% of the time)... then I set up a hospital tank for copper, ect.

It all cost less than $200. It's easy and my display tank is safe.

 

[i cant think]

Every single time these threads come up, it's the same thing; people want to justify whatever it is they already do. I have my doubts that very many people change their mind on QT. Until they kill off an entire tank by adding one sick fish. Even then, I have my doubts most people will do anything different the next time.

People want instant gratification.

I should copy and paste from another thread but....

I QT now because I lost some very old fish that I cared about after I introduced internal parasites and velvet to my display. This was after 10+ years of never QTing. Actually, I did QT sometimes, but fish would often die in QT because I had no idea what I was doing.

My current QT is a 40G breeder with HOB filter, live rock, sand, ect. It's always running. Fish go there for a month or two, then into the display if nothing comes up. If something like internal parasites show up, I treat in the QT. If ich comes up, I use hypo in the QT, but if that doesn't work (hypo is not always reliable, but I always try it first, I find it works 75% of the time)... then I set up a hospital tank for copper, ect.

It all cost less than $200. It's easy and my display tank is safe.

How do people KNOW their tank is 100% safe? A fellow reefer on here was doing VERY strict QT procedures on fish that entered their tank because they had a moorish idol and still do to this day from what I know. Even with strict procedures of QT on their tank they managed to contract ich.