The ethics of quarantining and and prophylactically medicating (or not)

[Lyss]

Only because you want them to be. A being that is self aware does not have to be able to feel pain. A person that has their spinal cord severed in an accident is still sentient though they can feel no pain below the injury. Pain can generate a response in an organism that has no ability to reason or self awareness at all.

Stimulus - response has nothing to do with sentience

No, because I come from a philosophical background and that is how we define and talk about the term: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentience

Anyway, it’s Christmas Eve and I’m not keen on arguing like this. Merry Christmas!

I think we’re talking about the same thing anyway — consciousness. It really all comes down to the brain, b/c that is where consciousness lies. A comatose patient may still be sentient even those they show no outward response to stimulus.

 

[Oregon Grown Reef]

People get upset about prophylactic treatment of fish and question the ethics of it, but also will get their children vaccinated to prevent them from getting diseases that may prove to be fatal to them and/or to those around them. It's an easy decision for me. I won't buy anything from any tank and put it into my quarantined tanks unless I know it's free and clear. My first tank is up and running still and I know it has had ich outbreaks in the past and other diseases/pests, but I haven't had any disease related deaths in years. When I break the tank down and upgrade to my next build, I'm going to treat them even though they're healthy because I know the other fish that I'll put in might not survive the herd immunity gauntlet. That's why I only buy fish from @tsmaquatics, @Dr. Reef, @Marine Collectors, and fishotel.com. When I buy live rock rubble to seed my tanks, it'll be from @AquaBiomics. It's possible to run a sweet reef tank and be able to sell/trade/give away corals from your tank and know they won't wipe out your buddies $1000 fish.

 

[flourishofmediocrity]

Animal RIGHTS is a misnomer. In order to have "rights", one must also know the consequences to exercising said "rights". Let's take a higher thinking animal, the dog. Is a dog sentient enough to know that crapping in the house is inherently "wrong"? People say their dog knows it did something wrong. If that is so why does it keep doing it? It is responding to your body language. It has no cognition of why the jackhole owner is rubbing his nose in it, smacking him with a newspaper, or any of the idiotic things we do to correct it. It has no understanding of the concept of cause and effect and therefore the concepts of "rights".
That being said annd ticking a lot of people off......Animal welfare is an entirely different subject. Getting biblical, GOD determined that even if animals of all kinds are under our dominion, it is OUR responsibility to care for them, revere them, and respect them to the best of our ability. As Paul B said. I wont be thinking much about the ethics of eating animals this holiday weekend, however I know exactly where that food came from and pay my respects to it for sacrificing it's life to sustain me. Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, and any other beliefs I left out during this time of celebration! Stay safe my Fishy Brethren!

With the disclaimer that I am not a lawyer, my understanding is animals are considered property pretty much everywhere and do not enjoy rights like humans. There are anti-cruelty laws for obvious reasons and I think that’s what would apply mostly in this case if we were talking legally. I would guess the vast majority of people on these forums would lean more side of empathy for the animals if they were suffering. I will also be eating animals this holiday, hopefully ones that were harvested ethically.

Woof GIF - Dog Puppy Happy Holidays - Discover & Share GIFs

Click to view the GIF

tenor.com

 

[flourishofmediocrity]

People get upset about prophylactic treatment of fish and question the ethics of it, but also will get their children vaccinated to prevent them from getting diseases that may prove to be fatal to them and/or to those around them. It's an easy decision for me. I won't buy anything from any tank and put it into my quarantined tanks unless I know it's free and clear. My first tank is up and running still and I know it has had ich outbreaks in the past and other diseases/pests, but I haven't had any disease related deaths in years. When I break the tank down and upgrade to my next build, I'm going to treat them even though they're healthy because I know the other fish that I'll put in might not survive the herd immunity gauntlet. That's why I only buy fish from @tsmaquatics, @Dr. Reef, @Marine Collectors, and fishotel.com. When I buy live rock rubble to seed my tanks, it'll be from @AquaBiomics. It's possible to run a sweet reef tank and be able to sell/trade/give away corals from your tank and know they won't wipe out your buddies $1000 fish.

Wow, thanks for bringing up the point about sharing things out of your tank that may carry something. I don’t think that’s even come up yet. Definitely something to think about, and thanks for sharing the links to the vendors.

 

[Lyss]

With the disclaimer that I am not a lawyer, my understanding is animals are considered property pretty much everywhere and do not enjoy rights like humans. There are anti-cruelty laws for obvious reasons and I think that’s what would apply mostly in this case if we were talking legally. I would guess the vast majority of people on these forums would lean more side of empathy for the animals if they were suffering. I will also be eating animals this holiday, hopefully ones that were harvested ethically.

Woof GIF - Dog Puppy Happy Holidays - Discover & Share GIFs

Click to view the GIF

tenor.com

This is along the lines of what I was talking about when I talked about evolving “rights”: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...6-pets-cats-dogs-animal-rights-citizen-canine

What gets really interesting is that in France, animals are by law "living beings gifted with sentience.” That was done in 2014, and just this year it has lead to this: https://www.connexionfrance.com/Fre...lfare-law-passes-What-will-it-change-for-pets

 

[WVNed]

No, because I come from a philosophical background and that is how we define and talk about the term: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentience

Anyway, it’s Christmas Eve and I’m not keen on arguing like this. Merry Christmas!

I think we’re talking about the same thing anyway — consciousness. It really all comes down to the brain, b/c that is where consciousness lies. A comatose patient may still be sentient even those they show no outward response to stimulus.

LOL Merry Christmas.

 

[GARRIGA]

Been keeping/breeding boas for 30 plus years. I've learned the hard way that shot gun medication can cause more issues than good. For example, if treatment is not for the required length then you risk creating a pathogen that becomes immune to that treatment. I've found that the number one killer is stress. Healthy animals often fight off infections and those that don't probably weren't long for this world. How nature excludes the weak. Quarantine with new boas is separation from the collection for a minimum of two years yet that doesn't guarantee certain ailments weren't hidden because the boas is a host.

My future QT practice for fish will likely comprise of running a diatom filter that is changed often as those do clog to remove the free swimming stage, if applicable. Otherwise, feed heavily, maintain strong filtration to keep nutrients low or bottomed out. I've found no evidence that fish can't exist in zero nitrates/phosphates, therefore, some form of carbon dosing and GFO can be deployed, although, I'm now at the point of finishing my decomposition process which seems to be handling all naturally assuming the existence of both nitrates and phosphates are present. The latter more of concern for QT corals of which I'm only doing to confirm no parasites are present. Lots of dips might be my remedy there.

Speaking of dips, that's something I've done with salt going back to the 80s although just using freshwater for a few minutes. Could use Safe Stop or just methylene blue. Haven't concluded on that yet.

Life that is exposed to a pathogen will often produce antibodies to naturally fight off that pathogen so long as their immune system is healthy and not overwhelmed by that pathogen such as frequently coming in contact with it. Why I chose to remove the free swimming stage of velvet and Ich or other pathogens that can be approached in that manner and let those that were affected to naturally build up a tolerance. In nature they likely can get infected but not repeatedly.

As for other issues then I will have to approach it on a one by one basis. Identify what I'm dealing with, study the life cycle and take the appropriate action. shot gun medication just goes against everything I've experience and I've been keeping fish on and off since the early 70s.

Reality for most is we don't have the means to setup proper QT for every new acquisition. Foundation of QT is that the clock start with the last addition, therefore, each new addition would require it's own system with all the necessary space and equipment. Alternative is build up a filtration system through fish-less cycling and buy everything at once. How many of us can do that or lucky enough to get everything we desire day one. We all know that every visit to a LFS, frag swap or internet search exposes us to another rushed purchase because we just had to have that?

Bottom line. No hard and fast rules. It all depends.

 

[Lyss]

LOL Merry Christmas.

Why is this funny?

I really don’t appreciate the way you engage with me as if to put me down, and make it look like I have no idea what I’m talking about. If I didn’t know what I was talking about I can assure you I would stay silent.

Merry Christmas.

 

[jmichaelh7]

I just got three new fish from a mature reef tank.

Should I start copper or just observe for parasites?

 

[Rocketfish]

It’s an ethical balance. If you follow some quarantine rules, you will be treating your existing stock and the new stock as equitably as possible. medicate prophylactically after considering all circumstances and options. People don’t always do that so - in my mind - they’re acting unnecessarily cruel to certain fish. After following some reasonable steps, you may find the risk to quarantining is potentially in the best interest of the other fish. But, I try to reduce the “wrong” of quarantining by making my quarantine tank a palace, educating myself thoroughly, and following my rules.

I know you don’t really want my opinion on which is better but I think the ethics of quarantine are absolutely dependent on how you do it. You must consider every factor in order to determine if it’s necessary and wise. That means balancing the options. And if you do, how can you provide a better QT experience. Better conditions = less stress. better conditions and serious thought as to how long to quarantine. That weight and consideration is far better morally than dumping a solo stressed fish in a barren tank all alone for 72 days.

Ethics of QT for me is balance and no matter what, quarantine kindly. Cruelty to anything that feels pain just, cruel. Unethical.

Quarantine is tragic for fish. They are lost and lonely. Breaks my heart. Not a new fish but a comment on the trouble with quarantine: I had quarantined a seahorse in a medicated hospital tank and he got stressed and sad and seemed to lose the will to live in the first hour. And this was not even a fish fresh from the store. To improve conditions, I tried sticking his spouse in as well, and she got depressed. A depressed fish is a stressed fish and that’s the first step to death. Killing fish because of uneducated decisions is wrong. Even the main tank suffered. Instead of a hospital tank quarantine, I now lightly dose the whole tank, segregate in a box in the tank, and feed medicated food. At least everyone’s together.

Once I did that, EVERYONE was happier. I wouldn’t do a hospital tank again without knowing that I absolutely had to.

Ethically, it’s a quality of life issue. When considering quarantining new fish, you MUST know the fish source and know diseases like the back of your hand. You must also have an arsenal of meds in case. If not, you’re negatively affecting The quality of life without regard to ethical considerations. Keep meds handy to dose an entire tank the second a problem shows. Mitigate the wrong. Instead of auto QT, now I do 4-6 hour drip acclimation from my only trusted store (copper-using) instead of auto QT so I can monitor their health after a stressful event. A sick fish quickly goes downhill once stressed. You can quarantine him and medicate prophylacticly because he’s obviously halfway there. Keep clove oil handy for when he can’t breathe or swim or eat. Sentient or not, fish feel pain and experience stress and loneliness. How comfortable are you with that? That’s ethics and that’s kind personal. At least, have clove oil on hand. It’s humane.

Consider everything. Buy appropriately and weigh the risk. Consider that captive bred fish are much less likely to be infected and hardier. Go for them. Fewer risks. Fewer reason to quarantine.

Only buy fish in pairs or groups. If you must quarantine, quarantine together. It makes it better on the fish and therefore, more ethical. If you can’t afford to lose two fish, don’t buy them. And if you have a lot of awesome fish in your main tank, you’re saving everyone with a quarantine. It’s a balance.

You have to really think about the source of the fish. Like, really consider a full-range of details. Example, I bought a fish from a new-to-me but highly regarded fish store. I didn’t quarantine. If I was smart, I would’ve noticed that he was with a bunch of seahorses and they’re resistant (not immune) to marine velvet so wouldn’t show signs. BUT more importantly, you can’t use copper with seahorses. In retrospect, they clearly weren’t careful.

In sum, the point of the marine velvet story below is that quarantine is no guarantee, fish death is hard to explain and predict, and you must carefully consider all aspects of the source before deciding whether to quarantine. especially consider copper treatment and the store’s source of the fish. Having that information is more important to me than a mandatory quarantine.

Also, quarantining a GROUP of new fish is much less painful that just one. They bicker and are dynamic and peppy. Far less stressed, even in a small tank. Two aggressive damsels and a huge clown in a 20-gallon was rough! But they were animated and not depressed. It’s cruel and stressful to quarantine one fish who has been stressed already. Then sticking in meds? Awful.

Prophylacticly dosing two is better than an entire tank so if you feel QT is the right choice, medicate the other fish you bought and avoid stress and death.

I make sure they eat first as well. Gives some strength! Improve their chances.

Consider two moves is hard than one and how long will your QT last?

To make the whole QT thing use the most gentle of meds first if you medicate in quarantine. Less stress.

I killed happy quarantined fish accidentally by moving them to infected tank I had cleaned and medicated that had housed a non-quarantined fish with velvet. 5 fish died horrible deaths because of my ignorance. I couldn’t even watch. My heart broke and it was just wrong to be so careless.

Sometimes even ethical quarantine considerations and accommodations and balancing can go wrong. Is ignorance a mitigating factor in determining morality?

FULL VERSION OF THE TRAGIC MARINE VELVET. Marine velvet is hard to diagnose til it’s too late. I thought it was a parasite. 3 fish died. One seahorse died and the other survived because I did a freshwater dip (thinking it was parasitic) and promptly dropped him with new seahorses in a new tank. He went from sad and solo to happy and thriving. I thoroughly medicated and cleaned the velvet tank (again, thought it was parasitic) and moved over three fish from a quarantine tank. They had been doing great because they were a group and they were cramped but happy. They promptly got sick and died in the most painful way possible: gasping for air. I thought it was shock from the transfer. It wasn’t until the last quarantined fish died that I saw I saw the spots. It was a clown and it took a long time and it was tragic. The copper was too late. I had quarantined the wrong fish. (before I knew it was velvet, I went back to that same store - the seahorse tank was completely empty - 20 fish gone. One seahorse remaining, just like me). Devastating and cruel. I infected my quarantined fish (because they themselves had been housed with a puffer full of worms in their old home) while killing them in a well-intentioned move. I didn’t quarantine the LFS fish because I trusted them. If I had known that copper wasn’t compatible with seahorses, I would’ve been on guard with the fish. Plus, it was too late to remember that my regular store NEVER mixed fish and seahorses. And they put copper in all other tanks.

ignorance can lead to awful results. Because you can actively reduce ignorance, if you make an unethical decision through neglect of your duties as an animal owner, it’s unethical.

I'm a total noob to this hobby, but I'm not new to keeping livestock. Bachelor's degree in Animal Science and worked several years pre-children and becoming more domesticated myself, with cattle.

I think of QT debate a bit like I would handle cattle. I'm introducing new ones to the herd. The herd is much more valuable both financially and ethically as a whole (if you're vegetarian, substitute horse for the cattle , same concept.)

We isolate new animals from the herd, deworm, and vaccinate if we do not know the history of the animal. For that matter, get a new puppy, you're going to the vet and they are going to vaccinate and deworm. AND...we are going to try to reduce stress on the new animal.

I'm not going to release the heifer into the herd early because she had a rough trip across country in the trailer. I'd argue that would be reason to keep her separately from the herd. But she'd be in a separate pasture ideally, not shut up in a concrete stall.

I'd also point out that even in the wild, there are certain efforts to control pests/problems for the good of the forest, reef, pack, habitat, and herd. Aquarium keeping seems to appeal to a more urban person, so thinking in terms of the health of the herd over time might be harder to keep in mind than the individual creature of the moment. Home aquatics is still relatively new in terms of health management.

When it comes to fish though....there isn't as much information about parasite and disease vectors as well as treatment. On bigger animals we can visually assess signs of parasites and disease easier.

And many only have the "local livestock market" to purchase from where we don't really know the history of the animal or treatment, versus a reputable breeder.

My personal ethics are pointing me to purchasing captive raised livestock and corals. I'm not a fan of a stark bare QT. But I am vigilant on testing and monitoring. I've also been in small commercial scale organic farming, so I do fully appreciate the concept of a diverse ecosystem to help keep pest and disease managed. I don't have that ecosystem yet. Some of your more seasoned tanks do.

A couple of my favorite posts so far...

One addressing the pure well being of the fish from a perspective of sociology and psychology as well as physical aspects of main tank community preparation, the other from a perspective of herd management.

Both of those are extremely important examples of what is appropriate for long term, lifetime of the fish commitment.

These perspectives have gone a long way toward making me "want" to spend that extra time and effort to do a proper quarantine.

Regarding herd parasite treatment, I know Levamisol has been used to great effect treating parasites but that was in my freshwater days. Has Ivermectin been used to treat internal parasites in marine animals?

 

[Lyss]

Just while I have a sec and am thinking of it… A paraplegic can certainly feel pain — maybe neuropathic pain, or pain in unaffected areas.

Pain also covers emotional pain, such as being distressed.

 

[Rocketfish]

I just got three new fish from a mature reef tank.

Should I start copper or just observe for parasites?

It appears that there isn't a particular method in this thread, but if it were me the best thing would be to have a nicely mature smaller tank for extended observation of problems.

Unfortunately not everything is "visible" to observation so some blanket measures are recommended for some of the "unseen" things that "could" be there.

I know most of the LFS I go to do quarantine fish and treat with copper before moving the fish to the sales tanks.

Although I am no expert, that may be worthy of consideration.

 

[jmichaelh7]

It appears that there isn't a particular method in this thread, but if it were me the best thing would be to have a nicely mature smaller tank for extended observation of problems.

Unfortunately not everything is "visible" to observation so some blanket measures are recommended for some of the "unseen" things that "could" be there.

I know most of the LFS I go to do quarantine fish and treat with copper before moving the fish to the sales tanks.

Although I am no expert, that may be worthy of consideration.

So I seen a white dot on the sailfin . First dose of copper went in today

 

[Jubei2006]

I think you may be misunderstanding what sentience means. It’s about feeling pain more than higher thinking like apes, and then humans are capable of.

Animals do have globally recognized rights, which I believe the original Q from the OP stems from.

At the basis of sentience by merriam webster, its the ability to respond to any external stimuli, taste, touch, pain, sight, hearing. Based on that definition purely, plants and bacteria are also sentient. Plants grow toward light, some respone to touch. Motile bacteria will move away from hostile environments. Yet animals do not have "rights". They cannot vote, free speech, right to bear arms and such. With rights come responsibilties and consequence. However, animal welfare is a huge topic to what I alluded to. All the "rights" you mentioned are animal welfare laws. Which I agree to a huge degree as a veterinarian.

 

[Jubei2006]

With the disclaimer that I am not a lawyer, my understanding is animals are considered property pretty much everywhere and do not enjoy rights like humans. There are anti-cruelty laws for obvious reasons and I think that’s what would apply mostly in this case if we were talking legally. I would guess the vast majority of people on these forums would lean more side of empathy for the animals if they were suffering. I will also be eating animals this holiday, hopefully ones that were harvested ethically.

Woof GIF - Dog Puppy Happy Holidays - Discover & Share GIFs

Click to view the GIF

tenor.com

You are absoutely correct, animals are treated as property. And as pet owner thank goodness it is so. As soon as it changes, so will pet ownership. As a veterinarian, if God forbid something happens under our care to your dog, if you can sue us for emotional damages and such, you care prices will skyrocket to at least those of human care. And without pet insurance, which will look like the human landscape, you're looking at 2000 to 5000 dollar spay and neuters. You think vet care is expensive now......pets will be a thing of the past. Now dont get me wrong....I love animals and am all about animal WELFARE, but that is where it stop. Animal RIGHTs draws a line I wont cross or support. Next thing you know you'll be tried for murder for enjoying a Sunday ribeye.

 

[flourishofmediocrity]

You are absoutely correct, animals are treated as property. And as pet owner thank goodness it is so. As soon as it changes, so will pet ownership. As a veterinarian, if God forbid something happens under our care to your dog, if you can sue us for emotional damages and such, you care prices will skyrocket to at least those of human care. And without pet insurance, which will look like the human landscape, you're looking at 2000 to 5000 dollar spay and neuters. You think vet care is expensive now......pets will be a thing of the past. Now dont get me wrong....I love animals and am all about animal WELFARE, but that is where it stop. Animal RIGHTs draws a line I wont cross or support. Next thing you know you'll be tried for murder for enjoying a Sunday ribeye.

I agree. I wasn't thinking legally when I posted this thread, just more of how people feel, but also was hoping to elicit useful expert information like this to help with the conversation. Thanks for contributing!

 

[Jubei2006]

I agree. I wasn't thinking legally when I posted this thread, just more of how people feel, but also was hoping to elicit useful expert information like this to help with the conversation. Thanks for contributing!

No problem, I enjoy the conversations with people. Especially those that have the knowledge to understand what we are talking about. Not "wow, why dont you have a Dory or Nemo fish?". I get to be on the front lines of it everyday. Like I said before, my tank is 525 gallons and Im still concerned about is enough room for my Desarjini and Blonde Naso. But hopefully they are more like Dory and forget they were over on the other side of the tank 5 seconds ago!

 

[Rocketfish]

No problem, I enjoy the conversations with people. Especially those that have the knowledge to understand what we are talking about. Not "wow, why dont you have a Dory or Nemo fish?". I get to be on the front lines of it everyday. Like I said before, my tank is 525 gallons and Im still concerned about is enough room for my Desarjini and Blonde Naso. But hopefully they are more like Dory and forget they were over on the other side of the tank 5 seconds ago!

My grandkids nearly insisted on Dory and Nemo, but when I got the hippo tang it was smaller than the clown at about the size of a quarter! It is now about 3" and very healthy. I have had it about 18 months now and it is the kids favorite.

As I type this they are watching "Finding Dory"!

 

[Lyss]

At the basis of sentience by merriam webster, its the ability to respond to any external stimuli, taste, touch, pain, sight, hearing. Based on that definition purely, plants and bacteria are also sentient. Plants grow toward light, some respone to touch. Motile bacteria will move away from hostile environments. Yet animals do not have "rights". They cannot vote, free speech, right to bear arms and such. With rights come responsibilties and consequence. However, animal welfare is a huge topic to what I alluded to. All the "rights" you mentioned are animal welfare laws. Which I agree to a huge degree as a veterinarian.

Did you bother to read the other articles I posted. I don’t take a position as to whether or not I agree, I am just saying that this is an evolving concept. In France laws have changed, for example. If we think of rights as only free speech and such that is a very limited view.

Sentience as well. Some will debate plants are, and that information is also easy to find. However, plants do not have a brain and central nervous system, which is typically argued is required for sentience to be possible. And again, very basically responding to stimuli, and FEELING and intent are not exactly the same concepts.

The idea of philosophical discussions is that they are supposed to be mind opening and lead us to new thoughts and ideas that are debated together with respect. I don’t find this forum to be very open or conducive to that and over the past few days have decided it is not for me.

 

[Paul B]

I don't know about the physiological effects of keeping fish are but I know my fish are, or seem to be happy.

I am not sure about the feelings of the clams, octopus, lobsters, king crabs, snow crabs, blue claw crabs, oysters, mussels, scallops, flounder, shrimp, cod, anchovies and squengeel I had for dinner last night. But they were really good and I hope they didn't feel any pain when they died.