The ethics of quarantining and and prophylactically medicating (or not)

[Cell]

If QT protocols weren't routinely shared and recommended this hobby would be dust. The vast majority of hobbyists have no local access to disease free livestock or know who the trusted online vendors are.

 

[Paul B]

The entire aquarium trade industry is rooted in profit,

Every industry is rooted in profit. The only people who keep animals for fun or education are zoos. If there was no profit in an industry, how long do you think it would last?

As for ethics, that is a word that should never be used in this hobby. How many of us have lionfish or moray eels and have fed them goldfish or grass shrimp?

How many of us used a dead shrimp to cycle our tanks. How many feed live worms or hatch brine shrimp to our fish?

Why do those creatures that we use as food or to cycle our tanks have less rights than the fish we keep?
I eat fish 3 or 4 times a week. Those fish all suffocated on the deck of a ship. Should I feel bad?

Many here want to kill parasites. Parasites are animals, do they have rights? Where does an animals rights begin? Is it how cute, rare or expensive they are?

I live by the sea and twice a day the tide goes out leaving large tide pools. In the summer those pools dry up and all the millions of fish, shrimp, crabs, snails and horse shoe crabs die there.

Is it un ethical if I don't stay there and throw all of them back into the sea?

I do not quarantine but I have a lot of experience so I know if I buy a fish it will most likely live a long happy life and probably die of old age many years from now.

So If we want to talk ethics, if you let your fish die from anything except old age, that is un ethical which is why we shouldn't talk about ethics.

 

[flyfisher2]

It is a sad thought to think we would attempt to justify one method versus another by way of "Ethics". The reason I say that is because if it is an "Ethics" issue then by that justification, one perspective is ethically correct and all others, in essence, wrong or unethical.

I believe pulling this issue into an "Ethical debate" is unhealthy and divisive. It is obvious with the posts so far that people are aggressively on one side or the other. but ask yourself, is this really an "Ethics" problem?

Each person's situation is justifiably different. Those that choose to quarantine, Kudos to you, and well done! For those who do not, we all know we are rolling the dice with that method, and more often than not we get away with no losses or minimal losses. If there is a major loss then perhaps that is justification to reexamine how we personally do things.

Any time we throw down the "Ethics" card though, it sounds like we are essentially saying, "I'm better than you, and you don't deserve to have what you have." No one on this list is like that of course, on either side of the issue!

Can I make recommendations? Yes.
Can I make very strong recommendations based on my own experience? Yes.
Should I make demands that everyone does things exactly the way I do it? No.

For the new guy starting out it's already like trying to take a sip from a firehose. Add "X"# of days in quarantine and the expense of setting up a second system to do that might just blow them out of the hobby if it is a mandated process. If however we communicate the risks and let the person decide what level of risk they are willing to accept, then I believe we are serving the hobby and our own compulsion to share what we have learned over time to be most frugal with livestock and dollars.

I can agree with you to point. Again my case is unique.
I was in no position to set up multiple systems but after several losses I started to weigh the options and it made more sense for me to quarantine.
I don’t regret my decision and at the same time respect those who don’t.
Agreed that one side should not impose his or her way over the other.
I would love to know how those on the other side can ensure success and their methods to arrive there.
Open mindedness leads to progress. Gambling leads to potential loss. Show me a better, reliable way and I’m all in.

 

[Operation Philo Beddoe]

interesting posts. I'd like to respond with a question. Why not quarantine? Are we not quarantining because we don't want the fish to suffer? Are we keeping our fingers crossed and praying that our 'Established System' Has all the Power to counter any and all parasites and diseases that may have come from the ocean, wholesaler, LFS?
Are we just saying this because we bought this beautiful fish and we want to see this ornament in my tank now even if it' only there a couple of days!
We vaccinate our kids from the moment they are born. Are they sick? No, it's a precaution, a preventive measure. I've been guilty of dumping the fish in the display and paid the price. I quarantine and I've lost fish in Quarantine but I'd rather have Uronema in a quarantine tank and not my display tank!

Well said, echoes my sentiment. As it turns out I get very sad when I loose a fishfriend. It hurts and I start asking how I could have prevented it. The pain is real, the only solution is to do everything I can. Tank to tank w/ meds is my method. As soon as there is a better method I’ll switch to it.

humble.fish to protect your fish friends.

maybe instead of ethical, humane would have sounded better as a topic.

 

[Uncle99]

Sometimes doing less is more.
While I support QT from an observational perspective, low stress and a great diet is all I have ever had to apply.
Any meds add stress, can reduce appetite which is IMM, counterproductive.
Only once, in more than 30 years did one fish, a clown get sick, with Ick. This was easily treated in QT via Hypo.
The rest, simply went into QT a little freaked at first but settled quickly and never showed any signs of anything.
Sometimes doing less is more.

 

[polyppal]

Every single time these threads come up, it's the same thing; people want to justify whatever it is they already do. I have my doubts that very many people change their mind on QT. Until they kill off an entire tank by adding one sick fish. Even then, I have my doubts most people will do anything different the next time.

^ Yup, one of those hills people are willing to die on either way... One of those threads that just gets regurgitated every few weeks

 

[flourishofmediocrity]

It is a sad thought to think we would attempt to justify one method versus another by way of "Ethics". The reason I say that is because if it is an "Ethics" issue then by that justification, one perspective is ethically correct and all others, in essence, wrong or unethical.

I believe pulling this issue into an "Ethical debate" is unhealthy and divisive. It is obvious with the posts so far that people are aggressively on one side or the other. but ask yourself, is this really an "Ethics" problem?

Each person's situation is justifiably different. Those that choose to quarantine, Kudos to you, and well done! For those who do not, we all know we are rolling the dice with that method, and more often than not we get away with no losses or minimal losses. If there is a major loss then perhaps that is justification to reexamine how we personally do things.

Any time we throw down the "Ethics" card though, it sounds like we are essentially saying, "I'm better than you, and you don't deserve to have what you have." No one on this list is like that of course, on either side of the issue!

Can I make recommendations? Yes.
Can I make very strong recommendations based on my own experience? Yes.
Should I make demands that everyone does things exactly the way I do it? No.

For the new guy starting out it's already like trying to take a sip from a firehose. Add "X"# of days in quarantine and the expense of setting up a second system to do that might just blow them out of the hobby if it is a mandated process. If however we communicate the risks and let the person decide what level of risk they are willing to accept, then I believe we are serving the hobby and our own compulsion to share what we have learned over time to be most frugal with livestock and dollars.

Some people see this discussion as "us vs them" and nothing will change their minds, that's fine. Some people will see this as a justification for their way of doing things and that's fine as well. Discussing ethics in and of itself is not a divisive or bad subject, it is what people decide to do with that information. I ask these questions because I want to learn what I don't already know, namely if there is any scientific evidence that fish suffer either in QT, or if they are simply allowed to live with parasites in their forever tank because I want to know, and I think there are other people that also want to know.

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Ethical fishkeeping:

• The owners of Reef2Reef adhere to certain standards of ethical fish keeping. We believe that freshwater and saltwater aquarists are directly responsible for the health and well being of any aquatic animals in their care, be they fish or invertebrate. These responsibilities include providing a healthy aquatic environment, humane treatment, humane euthanasia (when required), as well as obtaining and disposing of aquatic animals in such a way that does not damage sensitive local ecosystems. Posts advocating the illegal collection of fish or invertebrates, inhumane treatment, flushing live animals down the toilet, or releasing them into the wild will be removed.

 

[Lyss]

Some people see this discussion as "us vs them" and nothing will change their minds, that's fine. Some people will see this as a justification for their way of doing things and that's fine as well. Discussing ethics in and of itself is not a divisive or bad subject, it is what people decide to do with that information. I ask these questions because I want to learn what I don't already know, namely if there is any scientific evidence that fish suffer either in QT, or if they are simply allowed to live with parasites in their forever tank because I want to know, and I think there are other people that also want to know.

Terms and rules

You must agree to these terms and rules before using the site.

www.reef2reef.com

Ethical fishkeeping:

• The owners of Reef2Reef adhere to certain standards of ethical fish keeping. We believe that freshwater and saltwater aquarists are directly responsible for the health and well being of any aquatic animals in their care, be they fish or invertebrate. These responsibilities include providing a healthy aquatic environment, humane treatment, humane euthanasia (when required), as well as obtaining and disposing of aquatic animals in such a way that does not damage sensitive local ecosystems. Posts advocating the illegal collection of fish or invertebrates, inhumane treatment, flushing live animals down the toilet, or releasing them into the wild will be removed.

I don't believe it is inherently unethical to not quarantine and medicate a fish prophylactically, period. And I even QT. I just don't see how it's fair or even right thinking to sort of indirectly point this finger at folks.

I know if I have a cold I don't go to the doctor. I may not even self-medicate until it becomes clear I really need some Advil or something. But if it becomes more than a cold, I'll go to the dr. If it becomes an emergency, I'll go to the ER. The way I see it, as I've said before, is that the prominent folks who practice disease "management" and have a good handle on that approach (not newcomers who make mistakes -- but hey, we all have ben new once and made our fair share of mistakes) manage their system so the fish are not in any kind of distress or pain -- heck, some even speak of how their fish are spawning and living many years. But that doesn't mean you wouldn't intervene to medicate if it became ethically necessary.

 

[flourishofmediocrity]

I've updated the original post to clarify what exactly I am asking. The question is NOT do you believe one is ethical and the other is not. Nor is it are either of these choices ethical or not. The question is WHY? What has led you to believe one way or another, or what questions do you have that would need to be answered before you could decide.

EDIT: And if anyone wants to just keep arguing about their way being ethical, I'm not going to ask anyone to stop, but that's not what this post is about.

 

[Lyss]

I've updated the original post to clarify what exactly I am asking. The question is NOT do you believe one is ethical and the other is not. Nor is it are either of these choices ethical or not. The question is WHY? What has led you to believe one way or another, or what questions do you have that would need to be answered before you could decide.

EDIT: And if anyone wants to just keep arguing about their way being ethical, I'm not going to ask anyone to stop, but that's not what this post is about.

I think you've gotten a fair amount of "why" answers. I just gave one above, and I've read others along the way as well.

I think if you're going to answer why you are taking a position, you should clarify the position first.

 

[Sean_B]

noooooooooo!

 

[guysmiley]

iv always thrown my fish in right away iv observed first in bag for anything obvious before doing it and now i have my latest tang with ick im running a large uv sterilizer and feeding lots of food soaked in garlic with vitamins im not sure if i should perform a fresh water dip on it as thats stressful aswell , our imported fish have a heck of a time by the time they come to new zealand and finally end up in our tanks , yes quarantine but id also say quarantine in a decent sized tank with lots of hiding places to reduce stress

 

[Rocketfish]

Every single time these threads come up, it's the same thing; people want to justify whatever it is they already do. I have my doubts that very many people change their mind on QT. Until they kill off an entire tank by adding one sick fish. Even then, I have my doubts most people will do anything different the next time.

People want instant gratification.

I should copy and paste from another thread but....

I QT now because I lost some very old fish that I cared about after I introduced internal parasites and velvet to my display. This was after 10+ years of never QTing. Actually, I did QT sometimes, but fish would often die in QT because I had no idea what I was doing.

My current QT is a 40G breeder with HOB filter, live rock, sand, ect. It's always running. Fish go there for a month or two, then into the display if nothing comes up. If something like internal parasites show up, I treat in the QT. If ich comes up, I use hypo in the QT, but if that doesn't work (hypo is not always reliable, but I always try it first, I find it works 75% of the time)... then I set up a hospital tank for copper, ect.

It all cost less than $200. It's easy and my display tank is safe.

This is a really good example of why to quarantine along with how and costs. Thanks for the clear response.

As for me it's less a matter of cost and more a matter of space because my current tank is smaller than this qt setup. Yes, I could do the same thing with a 10 gallon setup I suppose, but now we are getting down to whether or not my experience this far has caused me to put in the additional time and effort.

Honestly I see this more with coral frags than fish since I have 2 nano reef tanks nicely stocked. One of them is about to get nuked because I "allowed" a small polyp coral that is undesirable into the system and it is more aggressive than zoas or fireworks and has really made the tank somewhat no fun to care for in the current state.

Having watched how Jason Fox does his multi step quarantine of every frag and agreeing with it makes me wonder why I don't do that with my fish.

Alas, I am likely heading that way with some dread of the additional time and effort because, yes, I want the instant gratification of seeing that fish in my tank asap!

Dang it @Justin_Reef, you nailed me if no one else!

 

[flyfisher2]

^ Yup, one of those hills people are willing to die on either way... One of those threads that just gets regurgitated every few weeks

I for one enjoy a good discussion. Listening to other reefers and their experiences with an open mind keeps the site interesting.
I don’t think more or less of my reefing brothers and sisters for not doing what I do.
I hope to learn more each day and I can’t do that by just looking at the pretty tanks. The part I love the most about the Tank Of The Month thread is reading about how the reefer arrived at that level.
I hope I personally have not offended anyone with my comments. Thank you ALL for sharing your thoughts, methods and ideas .
Happy Holidays my friends.

 

[reefiniteasy]

I think we think about this too much. I do not care whatsoever what any of you do with your fish. QT, don’t QT, it’s your tank. I will not spend my time judging you on your ethics or morals.

 

[Sean_B]

Happy Holidays my friends.

Happy and Safe Holidays Everyone. Life is short, enjoy your families!

 

[Justin_Reef]

This is a really good example of why to quarantine along with how and costs. Thanks for the clear response.

As for me it's less a matter of cost and more a matter of space because my current tank is smaller than this qt setup. Yes, I could do the same thing with a 10 gallon setup I suppose, but now we are getting down to whether or not my experience this far has caused me to put in the additional time and effort.

Honestly I see this more with coral frags than fish since I have 2 nano reef tanks nicely stocked. One of them is about to get nuked because I "allowed" a small polyp coral that is undesirable into the system and it is more aggressive than zoas or fireworks and has really made the tank somewhat no fun to care for in the current state.

Having watched how Jason Fox does his multi step quarantine of every frag and agreeing with it makes me wonder why I don't do that with my fish.

Alas, I am likely heading that way with some dread of the additional time and effort because, yes, I want the instant gratification of seeing that fish in my tank asap!

Dang it @Justin_Reef, you nailed me if no one else!

I really disliked QT until I just left the thing running all the time. I know not everyone can do this. I don't think it's wrong if you don't QT, but I know from my own experience and others, that it's risky.

As I said, I used to hate QT, but now I actually enjoy it. It's super easy if your tank is established. What I like the most is how stress free my display is.

Having the QT always up and running has also helped me a few times when I ran into aggression issues and had to separate fish.

If I encounter parasites, I do have to leave the tank fallow for a while, but I tend to crank the temp up to 81/82 and give it 45 days. I can't add fish in this time, but oh well. I tend to buy in groups anyways.

I don't know if I would QT if I only had a small tank, but I have about 300G and 20 something fish. I'm in too deep to get all willy-nilly and risk throwing a bomb in there. This hobby is tough enough. I have cyano to deal with.....

 

[Justin_Reef]

BTW, I also have a $500 fish, and that is expensive for me. Ain't no way I am risking that dude...

I do value all of them as pets, but this fish is just way too expensive to risk it all.

 

[Sean_B]

I really disliked QT until I just left the thing running all the time. I know not everyone can do this. I don't think it's wrong if you don't QT, but I know from my own experience and others, that it's risky.

As I said, I used to hate QT, but now I actually enjoy it. It's super easy if your tank is established. What I like the most is how stress free my display is.

Having the QT always up and running has also helped me a few times when I ran into aggression issues and had to separate fish.

If I encounter parasites, I do have to leave the tank fallow for a while, but I tend to crank the temp up to 81/82 and give it 45 days. I can't add fish in this time, but oh well. I tend to buy in groups anyways.

I don't know if I would QT if I only had a small tank, but I have about 300G and 20 something fish. I'm in too deep to get all willy-nilly and risk throwing a bomb in there. This hobby is tough enough. I have cyano to deal with.....

this is exactly what I worked out/drafted in my head

 

[Reeflier]

Granted, introducing anything, including corals and live rock, into the DT can bring disease with it. The person I will use to quarantine my new fish even has a recommended quarantine procedure for corals (2-3 months) before introducing into the DT. I know a lot of people share & swap corals freely, the vast majority with no issues. But, even with store bought corals infection risk is a possibility—it’s just much less of a possibility than with fish. I think the bottom line is to be as careful as you are willing to be and accept the results good or bad. I don’t plan to use live rock. I will certainly quarantine new fish, not so sure about corals. Everyone is different, but this feels like a good ethical balance for my situation.