These prices ... really?

[ssdawood]

Same here just trying to enjoy the hobby. But Brood does make an excellent point. Where do we draw the line?

 

[reeffirstaid]

brood, It would be immensely off topic for me to offer a walkthrough of a client engagement via my business. If you are interested in how it works, if you ever have a problem with a reef aquarium that gets out of hand, contact me. At the end, you can decide if you were given a fair deal. If you weren't, you can come here and discuss it with other aquarists. The purpose of this thread is to discuss how photoshopping corals, pricing them extremely high and making perhaps ordinary species seem rare or unusual, effects the reef aquarium hobby. If you would like to start a thread about aquarium consulting, feel free, though even there I am not going to share my business plan, in hopes of satisfying you.

It's interesting a handful of people have come out in favor of chop shops, who are charging an arm and a leg for corals, that may or may not be photoshopped. No one has mentioned names, so no fingers are pointed at any particular business. What's interesting brood, is that you are asking me to defend my business practices, but where are the coral sellers that are charging these outrageous prices, and selling frags that appear radioactive in photographs? Why have they not commented at length, explaining why the product they are selling is so valuable?

I would assume those so passionate in support of these coral shops, have either bought some of their wares, and are trying to convince themselves they didn't get ripped off, or are somehow connected to these shops. I've heard a lot of talk about supply and demand, the free market and capitalism, yet that's not what the discussion is about. What I haven't heard is how these coral shops, and their prices, are making a positive impact on the hobby? Rather worry about how I conduct business, brood, perhaps you could find one (1) way, these over priced coral shops are having a positive impact on the reef aquarium hobby, as a whole. Then you would actively be contributing to the discussion.

As for me mentioning my background, I feel it's pertinent, to the discussion. If I was some 16 year old kid, in my mom's basement, with my first reef tank, not only would I be a pretty poor consultant in marine life, but ill equipped to discuss the impactions of over-priced, photoshopped corals, on the reef aquariums hobby. I've given examples of how these shops negatively impact the hobby, yet it's valiant defenders just spit fire in their support, citing the free market.

The free market has nothing to do with the long term effect of photoshopped corals on the hobby, and I find it strange that not one vendor is willing to discuss why their product is so valuable, that a tiny sliver of it is worth so much.

 

[Kworker]

The terms Capitalism and free market got brought into the conversation once. the statement that these photoshopped, outrageously priced corals will increase the price of all coral or the entire hobby. Most of the people who mentioned these words also mentioned the market itself will determine FMV.

I think everyone agrees about the photoshopping and the high prices on ordinary coral. Yet this topic got derailed.

 

[Daniel@R2R]

I would assume those so passionate in support of these coral shops, have either bought some of their wares, and are trying to convince themselves they didn't get ripped off, or are somehow connected to these shops.

...or they bought and are happy with their purchases.

You have called these corals "way overpriced" which is a subjective statement. It is subject to the opinion of the consumer. Apparently there are many consumers who do not feel that these corals are overpriced since they buy and repeatedly buy these corals that carry higher prices...It would seem that they are happy and feel that their repeated purchases are justified.

 

[reeffirstaid]

fair enough bannister ... for me, that is enough said...

 

[broodc2]

brood, It would be immensely off topic for me to offer a walkthrough of a client engagement via my business. If you are interested in how it works, if you ever have a problem with a reef aquarium that gets out of hand, contact me. At the end, you can decide if you were given a fair deal. If you weren't, you can come here and discuss it with other aquarists. The purpose of this thread is to discuss how photoshopping corals, pricing them extremely high and making perhaps ordinary species seem rare or unusual, effects the reef aquarium hobby. If you would like to start a thread about aquarium consulting, feel free, though even there I am not going to share my business plan, in hopes of satisfying you.

I am glad you are not going to walk us through your business. By now you are probably realizing that my posts are intentionally absurd to prove a point. Personally, I'm not interested in hearing how your business actually works. I personally would not use your services because I feel $60/hour, even $30/hour for aquarium advice is overpriced. But that's the point. I wouldn't go create a facebook page or start a thread about how expensive I think your services are. Nor would I publicly start to question your business practices. Because it's none of my dang business. You don't know what the overhead or operating costs of these businesses are. And I wouldn't expect vendors to come on here and "explain" themselves to us for the same reason you refuse to delve into your costs, margins, profits, practices, etc. It's proprietary and none of our business! You have no right to assert yourself as the authority of coral vending practices so you can't tell someone if they are right or wrong (unfortunately even if they are using photo shop). Just like I am not the authority on aquarium consultation services so I have no right to judge the value of your services or tell you if you are doing something wrong. And please, don't pretend like your service has no affect on the hobby. $60/per hour is a lot in my opinion.

It's interesting a handful of people have come out in favor of chop shops, who are charging an arm and a leg for corals, that may or may not be photoshopped. No one has mentioned names, so no fingers are pointed at any particular business. What's interesting brood, is that you are asking me to defend my business practices, but where are the coral sellers that are charging these outrageous prices, and selling frags that appear radioactive in photographs? Why have they not commented at length, explaining why the product they are selling is so valuable?

I would assume those so passionate in support of these coral shops, have either bought some of their wares, and are trying to convince themselves they didn't get ripped off, or are somehow connected to these shops. I've heard a lot of talk about supply and demand, the free market and capitalism, yet that's not what the discussion is about. What I haven't heard is how these coral shops, and their prices, are making a positive impact on the hobby? Rather worry about how I conduct business, brood, perhaps you could find one (1) way, these over priced coral shops are having a positive impact on the reef aquarium hobby, as a whole. Then you would actively be contributing to the discussion.

If you think about it, I am, in a roundabout way, in favor of your business as well as the "chop shops," as you are putting it. I am pro-business in all regards. I would defend your business against someone coming on R2R flaming you about your "high cost" services and "shoddy, inaccurate advice." I would say the same things to that person flaming you as I am about the corals vendors. It's none of their business how you conduct your business. If customers are paying your prices, are happy with your services, and enjoy the advice you give them, that's all that matters. Please don't confuse my critical posts as defending chop shops. I hate when things are photo shopped or I get crappy service. But as I mentioned earlier, the way I show my disdain is to just not buy from those vendors.

If you really have an altruistic hatred of these practices, I implore you to use your OWN capital and start a foundation. Or if you don't have a couple million, go grass roots and raise money to start a foundation from all those customers who have been ripped off by these vendors. Appoint an independent Board to the foundation and make the mission of the foundation to promote standardized or "ethical" practices for selling corals and fish in the marine hobby. Take no profits from this endeavor and gain nothing from this endeavor other than the feeling of satisfaction you are improving the hobby. This will probably take many hours and keep you away from making money at your consultation job. Then, and only then, would I feel you have a right to bash someone else's business. It's easy to come online and bad mouth someone's business but quite frankly you come off as childish if you have zero skin in the game.

For the record, I am not connected to ANY coral vendors in any way. And again, I am not necessarily defending their bad practices. I am defending businesses in general. I used your business as an example to prove my point about what you are asking from the vendors you're bashing. They are not going to come on here and justify to YOU or any of us why they do what they do and why they charge what they charge. They shouldn't have to. And just like I didn't realistically expect you to do that, I hope you see how you can't realistically expect them to do that. It is your opinion that they are doing all this stuff wrong. I tried to show you how I could interpret how you are doing things wrong in your business. And that's the issue at heart. Only you can be the judge of value of anything for you. Let the market decide the value of anything for it.

And finally, you mention a whole mess of stuff about being "for the good of the hobby." Let's be clear here. Businesses have no obligation for anything regarding the industry they operate in other than to make MONEY. Yes, it is usually in their best interests to invest in things that help sustain their industry but it's not out of the kindness of their heart. It is to improve their social perception, sustain the resources they need to operate, etc. If a coral vendor doesn't have regard for the environment or the well-being of the hobby, well, that's there choice as well. And I will defend their choice to do whatever the HECK they want. And again, I will do my part and not buy from vendors like that.

Ultimately I hope this long drawn out discussion proves a point to you and to all the haters on here. I tried to show how easily someone could turn on any business. I don't know reeffirst. I have never heard of his services until this post nor have I ever been in contact with him or used his services before. But do you see how easy it is for someone with no knowledge of someone's business to come on a place like R2R, and basically rip them a new one? Heck, That Reef Guy all of a sudden thinks you are a sham and a rip off! See the snowball effect here?!?! So basically, because everyone likes to stay on topic, if you don't like the way they do things, don't buy from them. Other than that, shut your pie hole and move on with life.

broodc2 over and out.

 

[Hyperion]

To the OP, Amen brother, I really enjoyed this thread and agree profusely and have been a victim to the hype prices of corals. But after taking a step back and reevaluating, I'm gonna think twice before buying expensive/overpriced corals.

 

[TJ's Reef]

Are you kidding me !!! Why would anyone in their right mind support bad/unethical/deceptive Business in general ??? Free Market Capitalism is one thing, and usually a positive to the economy in general, but openly supporting these 'Color Enhancing Chop Shops' under the guise of "They're just a business and trying to make a living like every other" is complete and utter nonsense to put it lightly. All of the 'Defenders of XYZ Uber Cool Corals' have spent so much time in detracting this thread from its original direction that it makes me wonder why ??? If not to justify ones purchase from or some type of tie in to one or more of these what you believe implied businesses you felt was bashed. As in another similar thread I stated that these are not Vendors of 'Shiny Rocks or Knick-knacks' we are critiquing, but Vendors of 'Living Creatures' so they certainly should be held to a MUCH HIGHER STANDARD.... PERIOD !!! I would be completely shocked if that more than 20% of these lil overpriced and/or 'Uber Rare' (insert laugh here) Coral frags survived long term or even 30 days. So why would anyone think that this was OK, KILLING 80% of some living animal just to make a buck regardless of targeted Market Demographics.

ONCE AGAIN I/WE ARE NOT ATTACKING OR BASHING REPUTABLE VENDOR/BUSINESSES, just those deemed by the majority to be 'Color Enhancing Chop Shops'. For those of you happy to spend big bucks with what has been deemed a 'Good Vendor' by the majority for today's 'flavor of the month' Coral to add to your 'Collection' good for you and the industry appreciates your Dollars.

So in the true meaning of the OP this thread is to educate the Membership base here on R2R about the Coral Trade in general and to separate the wheat from the chaff so to say, There for they can make better buying decisions regardless of their Coral Budget. This in turn will help all of us, from one end of the spectrum to the other.

Cheers, Todd

 

[misoldier06]

http://themarium.co.kr/shop/board/view.php?id=notice&no=366

Check this out. This is from the website of the Korean LFS I used to go to. The price is on the pictures. And when it's says 25,000, that's about 27 US dollars for the whole colony.

 

[reeffirstaid]

I will repeat the mantra I've mentioned over and over again, "If you want to support shops that photoshop their frags, charge outrageous prices and make ordinary objects appear rare or unique, feel free."

I've worked in the reef aquarium industry for over 10 years, and see first hand what these chop shops do. Many of them, believe it or not, are private hobbyists working out of their basement. The free market is what it is. As I've brought up in previous threads, the aquarium industry has been caught up in proposed legislative restrictions for years now. Some of you may never have heard of H.R. 669. I wrote an article on it years ago, here is a link, http://www.fishchannel.com/fish-exclusives/fama/h-r-669.aspx.

It didn't pass, thankfully, but a new version is in the cooking pot as we speak. This hobby takes from Mother Nature, whether you like that fact or not. Yes, many coral colonies are grown in captivity. Yes, many of the corals offered for sale by these chop shops are wild. That's reality. If you follow the work of Dr. Mac from Pacific East Aquaculture, you will find a model of sustainable, ethical and positive way to approach this hobby, leaving a small footprint on the environment. If all vendors were Dr. Mac's - we wouldn't be having this conversation. This hobby introduces many to ecosystems they would otherwise have no connection to. This hobby needs some work, when it comes to the survival rate of individual animals. What this hobby doesn't need, are people misleading the public, (whether via photoshop, or the uniqueness of coral) to make a quick buck, off of someone's ignorance.

Business does have an obligation beyond money. I sold real estate for years. Realtors worked on the weekends for habitat for humanity, formed public service events and created internal committees to police the industry, so that people were not misled. Nearly any industry on Earth, has similar effects to pave a path to sustainability.

What you did brood, along with a few others, was contribute zilch to a discussion about how chop shops effect this hobby, and decided to go on a rant attacking me, which inspired others to do the same. This discussion wasn't attacking anybody, it was asking the question as to what effect highly priced corals, that may or may not be photoshopped, have on the reef aquarium hobby. Again, not one positive contribution was mentioned, and not one coral vendor stood up to defend their practices. To me, that speaks for itself.

As for giving free advice, I fathom a guess I've given more free advice to fellow reefers, than most on this site. I've also worked in the field, with marine biologists, on coral reef conservation efforts that would make most reef aquarists head hurt, to understand. Much of that, I did for free. When I was working with the Beautiful Ocean's Academy, we underwater GPS mapped entire acres of coral reef throughout the Bahamas, so that scientists could calculate exactly what was taking place, and what portions of coral reefs were being devastated. Guess what, we did it for free. Several weeks of grueling underwater work, all for the sake of contributing to Mother Nature. Also, I was a staff diver at the Pittsburgh Zoo and Aquarium, for free. Taking apart filtration units, capturing sick specimens and cleaning tanks, every weekend, to keep someone else's marine animals healthy. Right now, again for free, we are working with agencies to formulate a way to rid reefs of invasive lionfish.

 

[Mike J.]

Another example, I bought a 1.25" frag of a coral named "Toxic Waste Acro". Was wondering, is it another one of those photo shopped corals that will be brownish in my tank? Nope, it's in my tank and it really is "radioactive", as you say. Difference is I paid about $10.00 for it from a vendor on R2R.

I'm not a rich reefer, so I can't comment on buying $500.00 frags that might not make it 30 days in my tank; not something I'd ever do.

 

[Diesel]

Again.......... It's not going anywhere.
About time that we come to CLOSING arguments!

There will always be high priced corals in this hobby as long there will be hobbyist that will pay for them.
The beauty of this hobby is that it doesn't matter if they are worth the dime, it's freedom of market and there's nothing that one reefer or even for that matter an organization can do about it, PEROID!

You don't like move on!

 

[reeffirstaid]

For the record, what I am suggesting isn't some open forum where people bash coral vendors. Simply a website, akin to any that searchers and compares prices and product, and highlights those vendors with good prices and selling a nice product. It pits them next to the guy with the high priced product, and allows the website user to make their own informed decision. I can't see how that is, "going out on facebook" bashing anyone. If anything, users may find that the high priced outlets have something they are interested in, and buy it, who knows. The site will also have background information on vendors, highlighting who has the best prices on coral v. who is charging a lot. I've been working with a website designer on this for a while now.

 

[TJ's Reef]

Again.......... It's not going anywhere. Not going anywhere fast, but still bringing pertinent information to light
About time that we come to CLOSING arguments!

There will always be high priced corals in this hobby as long there will be hobbyist that will pay for them. TRUE, unfortunately.
The beauty of this hobby is that it doesn't matter if they are worth the dime, it's freedom of market and there's nothing that one reefer or even for that matter an organization can do about it, PEROID! I absolutely disagree, like most movements or changes in status quo it starts with just one or a few people. And since this thread on this site has the potential to reach many 1000's WE as a whole do have the POWER to CHANGE this industry for the better just by being better informed and/or educated on the obscene practices of a few 'Bad Apples' within the Coral Trade. By boycotting any company/business as many has stated from both sides of these arguments WE can make a difference. As an example, here in the Pacific NW we as a whole boycotted Exxon gas stations after the 'Exxon Valdez' disaster in Alaska and within a very short period most all were gone..... no customers = no profit = see ya! there is still no Exxon presence in our region even after they spent millions in PR that was ultimately useless as their reputation and credibility were gone.

You don't like move on!

I agree partly, depending on what your true sentiment was. Support another Business/Vendor..... Yes! Turn a blind eye and let status quo be just that.... Heck No !

Cheers, Todd

 

[revhtree]

Let's keep on topic and keep from making personal statements please. There are going to be people asked to quit posting in this thread as well as post that are cleaned up. We want to keep threads like this open but we can't if people do not follow the rules. Then when we shut them down we get accused of protecting vendors. So we're trying to keep it open but if we have to "work" to make people follow rules we'll just have to close it. Thanks for understanding. And to all those following the rules, thank you.

 

[TJ's Reef]

I made a post (originally post #314) that was removed, I guess from stating actual Vendor names which I did mainly in support of and not in any intended negative fashion. The two that could have been misinterpreted as negative were not, and as an analogy would be like me stating that Ferrari's are certainly beautiful and sophisticated pieces of machinery, but not a value to me... just not my 'cup of tea' I did not state anything disrespecting either and feel that both have their place in this market. I personally feel that this thread has had so many distractions thrown at it that it is now hard to find its original purpose. There are excellent and horrible Vendors alike from one end of the market spectrum to the other in the Coral Trade and WE as the consumers do have the ability to make a difference on which ones ultimately survive. It is up to us..... Status Quo...... or ........ Do something about it..............

Cheers, Todd

 

[Waynel333]

It seems like a lot are voicing their opinions so I shall give my 2 cents. There seems to be several different points being argued here. I think all can agree that over-photoshopped pictures are not only deceptive marketing but also immoral. That being said I have no problem when a vendor charges ANY price. If it's overpriced, no one will buy it. If it's under-priced, the vendor will sell out quickly without making maximum profits. It's the vendor's task of finding the happy medium. However if someone decides to drop a couple grand on a coral frag, more power to them.

Who are we to dictate how a person spends their money? Why do we feel like we know what's better for another individual? I'm assuming whomever can afford that kind of money are ADULTS. It's as simple as if you think it's too expensive, then don't buy it. But why must you fault others who don't feel the same way as you? As the old adage goes, something is only worth as much as another is willing to pay for it. Both the BUSINESS and CUSTOMER are satisfied. Their transaction has nothing to do with anyone or anything else.

 

[hybridazn]

Ibtl

 

[that Reef Guy]

Well it looks like all my posts got deleted.

Hopefully this will be my last post here.

I just wanted to say.

It seems like everyone on this site sells all the High End Corals for lots of money but if something is Rare of course it going to be expensive.

That is why I came to this site. I get to see all the pretty pictures that you do not see on other sites and I get to learn about all the New Hot Corals.

Personally, I do not make much money so I cannot afford the crazy expensive corals but I do not have a problem with that.

I do not see why people get so mad.

If you cannot afford them wait a few years and they will drop in price.

In other Hobby's (Coin Collecting, Baseball Cards, etc.) there are Million Dollar Plus collectables and nobody complains about those prices so I don't know why they complain about coral being expensive?

Plus those Million Dollar items will not drop in price but Coral sure will.

I appreciate what you guys do because it keeps the Hobby Fresh. I mean if every coral was inexpensive like Xenia everyone would get everything and get bored really quickly.

You guys come out with crazy stuff every day which keeps me excited.

Keep up the good work coral dealers on Reef2Reef.

I can't wait to see the next uber expensive Chalice.

It really makes my day.

 

[SantaMonicaHelp]

Santa Monica - I got my SURF2 today, very well built and innovative. Also, thanks for the very fast shipping and detailed instructions.

Thanks! We hope you enjoy the results you will start seeing fairly soon :]

On the capitalism note, scientists report in 50 years all large pelagic fisheries will be devastated. Commercial fishing ran with a Free Market Capitalism attitude. Look where that attitude got the natural resource. It's going to be hard for my daughter to explain to her a children, that once, long ago, the ocean was full of amazing creatures, they are gone now, so some people could get very rich.

Yes...very true, and very sad.