These prices ... really?

[turbo21]

Hmm...while I can appreciate the motivation behind the idea, I'd say be careful of this. It could turn into a witch hunt VERY quickly if not controlled. Let's face it, there are some people who have no expectations of vendors (other than their goal to make money), but there are others who's expectations are absolutely unreasonable.

+1

That's gonna turn into a bash fest quicker than you can blink
An eye.
You think it gets bad here where have a bunch of good
Mods to rain things in. Facebook and no
Control will be a disaster of people fighting

 

[SantaMonicaHelp]

Definitely glad so many posted agreeing with this thread. It's so hard to find any decent place where you can get unique and beautiful corals, where you don't have to save up for two months to buy just one 2" frag.

Kind of reminds me of upscale stores, where they slap an organic sticker on everything and it's suddenly $5-10 more. Just like someone somewhere is buying an organic, rare-mineral stapler, some sad someone somewhere is paying $350 for a nondescrepit singe polyp of one of those "Ultra" zoas.

 

[reeffirstaid]

Santa Monica - I got my SURF2 today, very well built and innovative. Also, thanks for the very fast shipping and detailed instructions.

It will require a lot of moderators, and a lot of time to formulate appropriate rules, etc, etc. Hence why I haven't just slapped a Facebook page up, where people are free to post. Also, I agree some have no real expectations of vendors. It will require discussion so that people understand the motivation behind the group. I am still formulating ideas on how to make it work, without having a bash fest, vendor smashing forum. With any luck, it will put some pressure on these vendors and snap some fairness back into the game. Any ideas are appreciated, aside from It's their right to free market capitalism. It is their right, it is also the right of consumers to form watchdog groups to report on the activity of vendors. Hence the Better Business Bureau. There are sponsors on this site, with multiple BBB complaints, where an investigation ruled against them.

On the capitalism note, scientists report in 50 years all large pelagic fisheries will be devastated. Commercial fishing ran with a Free Market Capitalism attitude. Look where that attitude got the natural resource. It's going to be hard for my daughter to explain to her a children, that once, long ago, the ocean was full of amazing creatures, they are gone now, so some people could get very rich.

 

[reeffirstaid]

To add to the discussion, who knew a couple of zooanthinids were worth almost 500 dollars.

 

[cutterx23]

cutter, from my perspective, my job as an aquarium consultant, and the reason I get phone calls and emails from aquarists, is to help people become successful aquarists. Being able to keep a particular species of coral or fish, isn't necessarily being a successful aquarist. My time in public aquaria made me understand the need for taking a multi-pronged approach to aquaria. Public aquariums and private aquariums face the same issues. I've yet to work with an aquarist, who didn't have some kind of budget. I'm sure there are people out there, though they aren't calling me, they are on the latest episode of Tanked. Many people entering the hobby don't quite know where to turn. Forums can help, but forums are better used by somewhat experienced aquarists, as there is no filter for information, some of it works, some of if doesn't, all of it pertains to individuals opinion or experience.

I have to weed through all that, and get down to the core of creating a successful aquarist, using what they have. These vendors are either hyping a commonly available product, making it appear out of the ordinary or exclusively rare, many are using computer software to enhance the appearance of what they are selling, and they are deliberately misleading people as to the availability of specimens. I know, and could name drop the coral shop, but we have been asked not to mention any of this site's sponsors. I will say, it was the same shop, in both instances. Furthermore, one of the outlets selling these ultra high priced, photoshopped frags, has gone out to nearly every review website on the internet and bad mouthed a very reputable, fair priced online vendor, because they post competition. Again, if folks want to defend these types of business practices, have at it.

At any rate, IME, this either confuses people regarding the cost of the reef aquarium hobby, or the misinformation they get, in the purchase of a super high priced frag, leads them to make very poor choices regarding their aquarium, that result in failure. I've had clients tell me, "I'm not buying that piece of equipment because I spent $ 600 on this rare frag from (insert a variety of vendor names here). They told me forget the skimmer, this awesome, rare, one of a kind coral, does better without a skimmer anyway."

Then they realize, what they get shipped, looks nothing like the picture, and is a coral frag they could have gotten for next to nothing, or free, at a frag swap. If people really believe this is good for the hobby and shouldn't be brought up into the light, again, that is their choice, just as it is the choice of aquarists to bright it up and make these vendors known throughout the hobby.

My beef is not with anybody individually or anything like that, it's simply these pointless threads. I actually agree with a lot of what's being said on both sides. Over photoshopping isn't cool, but people who experience that will generally know that for next time and buy else where, so usually only hurts the photoshoppers in the long run. Naming is good, allows people that don't know latin to place names with corals and color combinations, not all of us went and got a marine biology degree because we like fish tanks. Pricing is up to the vendor, we have no say so there is no point in whining. If it sells for the prices they ask, good for them, if it doesn't then it will come down. Everything will come down eventually anyways because this stuff grows. But pricing is what it is, and most people only learn from experience themselves. Even if they have 500 people tell them no, they will usually still try for themselves and form their own opinion. The people that spend the $600 on the frag and can't afford the skimmer and then quit when that coral dies because they can't properly care for it, probably don't belong in this hobby to begin. Or they will learn from that mistake and correct it for future experiences. This is just the way of life. And those of us with some experience on this site have a good general idea of the vendor(s) being talked about, so the anonymity is rather pseudo-under hand bashing. Nothing is being brought to the light because the casual reader has no idea who to "watch out" for, so to speak. So it only really discourages them against everybody, which isn't a good attitude. This should be fun, exciting, we should look forward to getting new corals, not saying "oh, gosh, is this gonna look like what it's supposed?" If you aren't comfortable with the chance you could lose whatever coral you buy then don't spend the money, they are living creatures that live and die. It's part of the game, play it, or find a new one.

 

[cutterx23]

On the capitalism note, scientists report in 50 years all large pelagic fisheries will be devastated. Commercial fishing ran with a Free Market Capitalism attitude. Look where that attitude got the natural resource. It's going to be hard for my daughter to explain to her a children, that once, long ago, the ocean was full of amazing creatures, they are gone now, so some people could get very rich.

Well then thank goodness for the variety of corals and peoples interest in all different kinds of corals, because when that happens, the re-population of the oceans reefs will start from the private and public aquaria sectors. We are also a part of the conservation.

 

[Pete polyp]

Well then thank goodness for the variety of corals and peoples interest in all different kinds of corals, because when that happens, the re-population of the oceans reefs will start from the private and public aquaria sectors. We are also a part of the conservation.

I couldn't agree more. Well said

 

[broodc2]

Nice try. We will not get into the naming game so you can win and have this thread closed down.



Sorry but no. We are not talking politics on this thread. Feel free to open your own thread.

EDIT: I confused Reefmad with Reeffirst. But still, I think it's worth posting to really try to get the "fair for everyone" crowd to see the point. Original post follows this unaltered:

I hate to break it to you reefmad, but you are spewing plenty of politics in your ideological posts about your perception of "fair" prices, business practices, and forming facebook pages to go after vendors.

And ironically reefmad, shouldn't you be thanking these dementor-vendors? Without them diluting the true marketplace of the aquarium hobby and other confusing and misinforming hobbyists posting on forums like this, wouldn't you have less business as an aquarium consultant? What would all the poor newbs do without you to sheppard them to reef utopia?

To illustrate my point, and really the points I and other folks on here have been trying to make, hear me out on this... How much do you charge for your aquarium consultation services? Your website says $60/hour!!!!!:wacko: For $60 someone could buy a good reef keeping book and get the same advice you are most likely giving! Maybe I should start a thread about how expensive and over priced aquarium consultation services are (of course not naming vendor names cough cough). After all, I am a reefer on a budget. If I pay you, that's money I could have used for better equipment/nicer corals/etc. Maybe we should start a facebook page to let "the people" decide what a fair charge should be for your services or point out how you are just shelling out advice that could easily be found with an internet search or read in a book or a trade rag. I'll be the first to vote. I say it should be free. Couldn't someone argue that you are being fairly deceptive? Instead of offering your services, why don't you suggest a good LFS in your area with knowledgeable staff that could help someone from start to finish with setting up and maintaining an aquarium? Why don't you recommend a good reef keeping book rather than market your consultative services?

If you are getting angry with me, than I made my point. I'm not a shareholder in your business. I have NO right to tell you how to run it or how to practice or what to charge. If I disagree with how you are running your business or think the advice you are giving is false, incorrect, or overpriced, how do you feel about me going to the world (i.e. R2R, facebook, etc.) to "educate" them about you. So please. Post to the world just how much it costs for your services all in on average. I challenge you. Let us decide the value of what you provide. Walk us through how you consult someone. Tell us the advice you give them that is so much better than what they can find on their own. And if we think you should charge less, I challenge you to change your prices to reflect that. If we think there is some advice you need to alter, I challenge you to change how you run your business to incorporate those changes. After all, isn't that what you are aiming to do with coral vendors?

 

[Daniel@R2R]

EDIT: I confused Reefmad with Reeffirst. But still, I think it's worth posting to really try to get the "fair for everyone" crowd to see the point.

I hate to break it to you reefmad, but you are spewing plenty of politics in your ideological posts about your perception of "fair" prices, business practices, and forming facebook pages to go after vendors.

And ironically reefmad, shouldn't you be thanking these dementor-vendors? Without them diluting the true marketplace of the aquarium hobby and other confusing and misinforming hobbyists posting on forums like this, wouldn't you have less business as an aquarium consultant? What would all the poor newbs do without you to sheppard them to reef utopia?

To illustrate my point, and really the points I and other folks on here have been trying to make, hear me out on this... How much do you charge for your aquarium consultation services? Your website says $60/hour!!!!!:wacko: For $60 someone could buy a good reef keeping book and get the same advice you are most likely giving! Maybe I should start a thread about how expensive and over priced aquarium consultation services are (of course not naming vendor names cough cough). After all, I am a reefer on a budget. If I pay you, that's money I could have used for better equipment/nicer corals/etc. Maybe we should start a facebook page to let "the people" decide what a fair charge should be for your services or point out how you are just shelling out advice that could easily be found with an internet search or read in a book or a trade rag. I'll be the first to vote. I say it should be free. Couldn't someone argue that you are being fairly deceptive? Instead of offering your services, why don't you suggest a good LFS store in your area with knowledgeable staff that could help someone from start to finish with setting up and maintaining an aquarium? Why don't you recommend a good reef keeping book rather than market your consultative services?

If you are getting angry with me, then I made my point. I'm not a shareholder in your business. I have NO right to tell you how to run it or how to practice or what to charge. If I disagree with how you are running your business or think the advice you are giving is false, incorrect, or overpriced, how do you feel about me going to the world (i.e. R2R, facebook, etc.) to "educate" them about you. So please. Post to the world just how much it costs for your services all in on average. I challenge you. Let us decide the value of what you provide. Walk us through how you consult someone. Tell us the advice you give them that is so much better than what they can find on their own. And if we think you should charge less, I challenge you to change your prices to reflect that. If we think there is some advice you need to alter, I challenge you to change how you run your business to incorporate those changes. After all, isn't that what you are aiming to do with coral vendors?

Ummm...I think you might be confusing two different users in this conversation. Reeffirstaid is the one with the Facebook page and consulting service.

 

[Daniel@R2R]

Ummm...I think you might be confusing two different users in this conversation. Reeffirstaid is the one with the Facebook page and consulting service.

Nvm I see you caught it.

 

[Diesel]

Holey Cow, this thread grew faster than weeds in my front yard, LOL!
On a positive note I noticed that their were some nice words mentioned on this thread that resembles in the near future some names for some pricey corals.
That said, it was a productive discussion for both sides.
Now back to my #1 coffee.

 

[rhino56]

corals cost money, if you don't like what someone charges don't buy it, complaining about it only makes you a come off as a negative person, It costs me a small fortune to maintain my reef setup, If i could sell radioactive dragon eye zoas for 100.00 each i doubt it would even come close to breaking even.

 

[reeffirstaid]

As for the cost of my services, if you notice all over my website, I ask that potential clients email or call me, so that we can discuss their individual scenario. I've gotten many emails asking for a general cost, so I added one to my website. Since I've been a writer for just about every marine aquarium magazine out there, and worked with the writers of a variety of reef related books, I know for a fact that the service I offer cannot be found in a book. If it could, I would just have written a book on reef aquariums, and left it at that. As for a member of the public going out and questioning my service, or its cost - My service stands on its own merits and I have an open and thorough relationship with my clients, so if there is a problem regarding any facet, it's resolved in a cooperative manner. Though, comparing a consulting service to coral sales, is like comparing a car salesman to a driving instructor, they may be part of the same industry, but the roles they play are very different.

My set-up costs a small fortune to maintain and I have a collection of some very rare fish, corals and invertebrates that I have paid a hefty price for. I could be driving one heck of a sports car, easily, for the money I have in 300 gallons of marine water. This discussion is off topic, in that it isn't really about the fact that people will pay x amount of dollars for something. It's about what the implication of three (3) things have on the reef aquarium hobby. The photoshopping of corals, charging ridiculous prices for tiny pieces of colorful corals, and making something appear unique or extremely rare, when perhaps it is not.

As I have said, multiple times, if people want to defend any of those business practices, that is their right. It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone, especially the vendors, who know full well what they are doing, when the practices are called into question and a watchdog group appears that brings them to light. It would be the same, if as a consultant, I charged someone $ 600 and sent them a general flyer on keeping a reef aquarium and then didn't offer any support from that point on.

Years ago, it was common to find used car salesman altering the odometer of vehicles. Some used car salesman would change the nameplates of vehicles, making them appear rare or exotic. Today, we have Car Fax, KBB and a vast variety of others, that have pushed honest and open sales of used vehicles, offering extended warranty protection and a variety of certifications. These programs came into effect because people were getting ripped off. I'm sure there were people, like some on this forum, that defended the used car salesman. It didn't matter, enough folks saw a major problem, action was taken and much of that behavior within car sales stopped.

 

[reefkoi]

I really wonder how many of these $1500 per inch frags are really sold and if its not all just marketing hype. Funny how there are hardly any photos of these in the hands of hobbyists.

Exactly

 

[broodc2]

reeffirstaid,

I appreciate you taking the time to defend your business model but that does not answer the challenge I presented to you. The problem is, YOU are defending the value of YOUR services and YOU are defending the prices that you charge without telling us exactly what you do. I didn't ask you to do that. Do you think, if these vendors you're attacking had the chance, they would simply just come on here and defend why they charge such high prices? I think THEY would defend the value of THEIR services and THEY would defend the prices they charge. Like you, they would cite differentiating factors. Like you mentioned providing advice that can't be found anywhere else, they would probably say they have pieces that no other, or few other, vendors have. You say, "My service stands on its own merits and I have an open and thorough relationship with my clients, so if there is a problem regarding any facet, it's resolved in a cooperative manner." Do you not think these vendors would say the same thing regarding their business and their customers? And finally, I believe this is a fair comparison. You attempt to dodge the challenge by trying to convince us that the two business are not related (coral vending vs. aquarium consultation). Unfortunately for you, for this exercise, that doesn't matter. You could own your own carpet and flooring store and I could still pose this challenge to you. The bottom line is, whether its coral vending, rug selling, or aquarium advice giving, someone is selling something and someone is buying. When that relationship exists there is opportunity to have a perception that the seller is over charging the buyer or the seller is not operating with complete honesty as they could. Does that make sense?

So I will reissue the challenge. Don't extol the merits of your business please...I'm sure it's fantastic. Simply walk us through a typical client engagement. Tell us the services you provide, the advice you give, and the accompanying total cost you charge all in. It's that simple. Don't pump it up by telling us how many years you have in the hobby or how much money you have invested in your own personal tank. Just tell us what you do, and how much it costs. Simple. And if WE decide it shouldn't cost that much on average, I challenge you to alter your business practices and adopt the pricing schedule we think is "fair." Tell us this advice you give to clients. Don't patronize us by claiming that it's advice you can't find ANYWHERE else. Tell us how you came up with $60 an hour to post on your website. Is that the high, middle, or low range of cost per hour for your services? Again I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just trying to prove a point. It's not helpful to defend your business by telling us how great you think it is, and then not give details about your actual cost structure, margins, or actual services provided. This challenge is about letting the market decide what you should charge based on the service you are offering and if you are really giving out great advice or pulling the wool over the eyes of unsuspecting newbs. Because ultimately this is what you are trying to do with your vendetta against these coral vendors.

And let's not fool ourselves here. And again I don't appreciate the patronizing. KBB, Carfax, etc. are in existence because someone saw a void in a marketplace and filled that void with these services in an attempt to make MONEY. There is a reason why KBB and Carfax are incorporated and not organized as 501(c) companies (non profits). Along those same lines, I myself question YOUR motivations for this vendetta. Please be honest with us. Did it not even cross your mind that if you take up this cavalier cause in exposing the wrong-doings of vendors and correcting the wrongs in this marketplace, that your own aquarium consultation business may get a little boost?

 

[hybridazn]

reeffirstaid,

I appreciate you taking the time to defend your business model but that does not answer the challenge I presented to you. The problem is, YOU are defending the value of YOUR services and YOU are defending the prices that you charge without telling us exactly what you do. I didn't ask you to do that. Do you think, if these vendors you're attacking had the chance, they would simply just come on here and defend why they charge such high prices? I think THEY would defend the value of THEIR services and THEY would defend the prices they charge. Like you, they would cite differentiating factors. Like you mentioned providing advice that can't be found anywhere else, they would probably say they have pieces that no other, or few other, vendors have. You say, "My service stands on its own merits and I have an open and thorough relationship with my clients, so if there is a problem regarding any facet, it's resolved in a cooperative manner." Do you not think these vendors would say the same thing regarding their business and their customers? And finally, I believe this is a fair comparison. You attempt to dodge the challenge by trying to convince us that the two business are not related (coral vending vs. aquarium consultation). Unfortunately for you, for this exercise, that doesn't matter. You could own your own carpet and flooring store and I could still pose this challenge to you. The bottom line is, whether its coral vending, rug selling, or aquarium advice giving, someone is selling something and someone is buying. When that relationship exists there is opportunity to have a perception that the seller is over charging the buyer or the seller is not operating with complete honesty as they could. Does that make sense?

So I will reissue the challenge. Don't extol the merits of your business please...I'm sure it's fantastic. Simply walk us through a typical client engagement. Tell us the services you provide, the advice you give, and the accompanying total cost you charge all in. It's that simple. Don't pump it up by telling us how many years you have in the hobby or how much money you have invested in your own personal tank. Just tell us what you do, and how much it costs. Simple. And if WE decide it shouldn't cost that much on average, I challenge you to alter your business practices and adopt the pricing schedule we think is "fair." Tell us this advice you give to clients. Don't patronize us by claiming that it's advice you can't find ANYWHERE else. Tell us how you came up with $60 an hour to post on your website. Is that the high, middle, or low range of cost per hour for your services? Again I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just trying to prove a point. It's not helpful to defend your business by telling us how great you think it is, and then not give details about your actual cost structure, margins, or actual services provided. This challenge is about letting the market decide what you should charge based on the service you are offering and if you are really giving out great advice or pulling the wool over the eyes of unsuspecting newbs. Because ultimately this is what you are trying to do with your vendetta against these coral vendors.

And let's not fool ourselves here. And again I don't appreciate the patronizing. KBB, Carfax, etc. are in existence because someone saw a void in a marketplace and filled that void with these services in an attempt to make MONEY. There is a reason why KBB and Carfax are incorporated and not organized as 501(c) companies (non profits). Along those same lines, I myself question YOUR motivations for this vendetta. Please be honest with us. Did it not even cross your mind that if you take up this cavalier cause in exposing the wrong-doings of vendors and correcting the wrongs in this marketplace, that your own aquarium consultation business may get a little boost?

Boom....

 

[1mbrews8]

I dont know the reeffirstaid guy, but I know I wouldnt tell everyone all my little secrets to what my particular business so awesome.

He looks like he gives a general idea on an estimate on price to weed out the tire kickers and shows that he should know what he is talking about with the mag and book references.

Would I pay $60 an hour for it? No. Do I think $60 an hour is expensive? No/depends.
It depends on how bad I need the info and how much my time figuring out/ looking up/reading, etc is worth.

I would just ask a fellow reefer with a nice tank and get it free...

Coral's sensei!

 

[Kworker]

 

[cutterx23]

Brood did he not respond almost exactly like I said he would last night!? lol

I feel like the momentum of the people complaining about this has started to ween. Hopefully it will be a dead thread soon. Cuz I feel just like the meme above.

 

[Diesel]

It's going no where, more and more circle's.
IMO, you have Reef Hobbyist and reef filibusters.................. I choose to be the first one and enjoy as I can.