These prices ... really?

[Waynel333]

Originally Posted by reeffirstaidOn the capitalism note, scientists report in 50 years all large pelagic fisheries will be devastated. Commercial fishing ran with a Free Market Capitalism attitude. Look where that attitude got the natural resource. It's going to be hard for my daughter to explain to her a children, that once, long ago, the ocean was full of amazing creatures, they are gone now, so some people could get very rich.



Yes...very true, and very sad.

This is a pretty unfounded and silly broad statement. Capitalism and irresponsible pillaging of resources have absolutely nothing to do with each other. That's like saying the socialistic and/or communistic attitude towards free healthcare will encourage people to leach and not contribute to the healthcare system thus leading to substandard care because medical professionals will have no incentives to excel.

There are plenty of for-profit, 'capitalistic' companies practicing successful aqua-culturing and sustainable fish farming methods.

 

[Fishon]

I just got back into reefing after a 14 year break, What happened to the expensive part of reefing being the equipment you purchased?! Now a single 1/2 inch frag you can barley see in a tank is as much as a high end protein skimmer... really?! Have there been restrictions on divers collecting new pieces of corals?! I know the economy has not been that good, so that cant be influencing this trend! Just some prices i see i am at a loss for words, I am not say these pieces are not amazing looking, but with that price tag it kinda takes the amazing out of it.

 

[reeffirstaid]

Fishon, you repeat the sentiments I have gotten from several folks I have been working with. Oddly enough, I've been in reef keeping as long as you, and wasn't aware of this "trend" till recently, when a client made me aware of it. It certainly isn't diving and collecting restrictions influencing price. Many outlets still offer corals for fair prices, slightly elevated over the years, but not outside the realm of normal inflation. From what I understand, and the research I have done, it seems like a small collective of coral shops are using forums, (via a network of friends, employees, etc) to create dramatic hype about corals. While the corals are very pretty, they aren't outside the realm of what a prudent aquarist can have, with a frag picked up at a local frag swap. Also, much of the coral they are selling, could be wild, so it may change as it adapts to aquarium life. Using the forums, they are generating hype to make pieces seem super rare and exclusive, then charging an outrageous price for them. Tiny frags, like you said, barely visible in a large tank, costing more than high end controllers and equipment, it makes no sense. What's funny, non of the vendors selling these corals came here, to this discussion, to answer any of the original questions posed, or justify their insane prices.

 

[reeffirstaid]

Wayne, my statement regarding ocean health, isn't unfounded, broad or without basis. Many news outlets, including large networks like CNN, have reported that scientists predict a worldwide oceanic collapse, sometime in the next 50 years. The Census for Marine Life, which is a decade long survey of ocean life, finished in 2010, reporting that 90% of large fish had disappeared from the ocean, likely due to over fishing. When I was active in reef conservation with Beautiful Oceans, it was reported that coral reefs made up 25% of space within the oceans, but were home to 80% of species. They had reached a level of 86% degradation, and that was in 2012. Consumer demand for seafood, fossil fuels, resorts, etc etc, have all contributed to oceanic decline. One thing most people forget, is how important the Amazon River is, to oceanic health. Sedimentation and runoff into the river, from the timber industry and large scale commercial farming, has hurt the ocean greatly. Here in MD, we have the situation with the Chesapeake Bay, as a start reminder of how estuaries effect the ocean. All of the things I noted, that are destroying the ocean, boil down ultimately to someone making a lot of money, at the expense of a natural resource.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/22/world/oceans-overfishing-climate-change/

 

[FLipp]

this is a big LOL.
supply and demand.

 

[mrcoffee2]

this is a big LOL.
supply and demand.

This is the truth... Why is this thread going on so long? Its pretty simple

 

[turbo21]

Wayne, my statement regarding ocean health, isn't unfounded, broad or without basis. Many news outlets, including large networks like CNN, have reported that scientists predict a worldwide oceanic collapse, sometime in the next 50 years. The Census for Marine Life, which is a decade long survey of ocean life, finished in 2010, reporting that 90% of large fish had disappeared from the ocean, likely due to over fishing. When I was active in reef conservation with Beautiful Oceans, it was reported that coral reefs made up 25% of space within the oceans, but were home to 80% of species. They had reached a level of 86% degradation, and that was in 2012. Consumer demand for seafood, fossil fuels, resorts, etc etc, have all contributed to oceanic decline. One thing most people forget, is how important the Amazon River is, to oceanic health. Sedimentation and runoff into the river, from the timber industry and large scale commercial farming, has hurt the ocean greatly. Here in MD, we have the situation with the Chesapeake Bay, as a start reminder of how estuaries effect the ocean. All of the things I noted, that are destroying the ocean, boil down ultimately to someone making a lot of money, at the expense of a natural resource.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/22/world/oceans-overfishing-climate-change/

When was the last time you went to a frag swap. They are filled with all the high end top dollar corals you dislike

 

[hybridazn]

Fishon, you repeat the sentiments I have gotten from several folks I have been working with. Oddly enough, I've been in reef keeping as long as you, and wasn't aware of this "trend" till recently, when a client made me aware of it. It certainly isn't diving and collecting restrictions influencing price. Many outlets still offer corals for fair prices, slightly elevated over the years, but not outside the realm of normal inflation. From what I understand, and the research I have done, it seems like a small collective of coral shops are using forums, (via a network of friends, employees, etc) to create dramatic hype about corals. While the corals are very pretty, they aren't outside the realm of what a prudent aquarist can have, with a frag picked up at a local frag swap. Also, much of the coral they are selling, could be wild, so it may change as it adapts to aquarium life. Using the forums, they are generating hype to make pieces seem super rare and exclusive, then charging an outrageous price for them. Tiny frags, like you said, barely visible in a large tank, costing more than high end controllers and equipment, it makes no sense. What's funny, non of the vendors selling these corals came here, to this discussion, to answer any of the original questions posed, or justify their insane prices.

Dude just stop, your like a dog chasing its own tail.

 

[Fishon]

Do not get me wrong though there are definitely specific suppliers i dealt with that i spent a decent chunk of change, and got multiple corals and one surprise happen to be one of those astronomical priced pieces for a fraction (literately) of the price, so i feel like you have to find your supplier, unfortunately no names can be used, but there is 2 i am really happy with who will work with you, but i have also pm a few who told me the ticket is the ticket, tough luck. But i am still amazed at some of these prices after 15 years.

 

[that Reef Guy]

This is the truth... Why is this thread going on so long? Its pretty simple

Because ReefFirstAid will simply not give up.

He just wants to complain.

 

[that Reef Guy]

Dude just stop, your like a dog chasing its own tail.

LOL.

So True.

 

[One Reefing Boi]

prices are still crazy high, especially torches right now

 

[jservedio]

I am a free market guy and I am just fine with people buying and selling their 2-pack of single polyp acros for $925 to their hearts desire. I also believe people should be able to call their corals anything they want to. HOWEVER, people Photoshopping corals needs to be called exactly what it is - fraud. Sure, correcting white balance, fixing exposure, cropping, etc. is fine - as long as it looks like the coral and you aren't misrepresenting your product. However, once you start moving around the saturation, hue, and contrast sliders, adding in huge color curves, or breaking out channels and modifying them to add in or change colors (and I have seen plenty of this) - you are now deceiving your buyer and taking their money through false pretenses, and that is a crime: theft by deception.

Everyone understands corals look different under different lighting and there might be some recovery required after shipping, but when you display a photo where the algae on the frag plug has better color than half the corals in a TOTM - it is straight up fraud and needs to be called out. This is completely unacceptable in every single industry - why do we put up with it in our hobby? I am actually very surprised you don't hear of that many vendors being sued with all the shenanigans going on in this hobby.

Some vendors are incredible, absolutely honest, and never misrepresent anything to their customers. Unfortunately, not all vendors are like this...

 

[mariano]

those corals better come with a pair of Balenciaga sneakers.

 

[Camaro Show Corals]

those corals better come with a pair of Balenciaga sneakers.

Or Air Mags!