Throwing out the Marine Pure?

[rkpetersen]

I’m not aware of anyone triton testing newly mixed artificial seawater, so i’m not sure what the baseline is for those salts.

Actually, I did several ICPOES spot checks of freshly mixed salt in the second half of 2017.

Reef Crystals: 1.4 ppb (Triton)
RPM: 2.6 ppb (Triton) 0.9 ppb (ATI)
Coral Pro: 3.6 ppb (Triton) 1.3 ppb (ATI)

So, overgeneralizing perhaps, but I bet most salts contain trace levels of aluminum.


Does Marine Pure leach Al into your water? Sure. Are the levels of Al that are seen because of this causing any harm? Seems highly unlikely, in most cases.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Actually, I did several ICPOES spot checks of freshly mixed salt in the second half of 2017.

Reef Crystals: 1.4 ppb (Triton)
RPM: 2.6 ppb (Triton) 0.9 ppb (ATI)
Coral Pro: 3.6 ppb (Triton) 1.3 ppb (ATI)

So, overgeneralizing perhaps, but I bet most salts contain trace levels of aluminum.


Does Marine Pure leach Al into your water? Sure. Are the levels of Al that are seen because of this causing any harm? Seems highly unlikely, in most cases.

Just to make it clear, those are levels that reefers also see when not using aluminum media of any sort, and are actually pretty close to Triton's stated limit of detection, so may be pretty noisy (if real at all):
https://www.triton-lab.de/fileadmin/user_upload/triton-lab/TRITON_LOD.pdf

But those values are way, way less than marine Pure used in their study, which seems unusual for that reason.

here's my copy and paste from another thread:

http://cermedia.com/blog.php?p=142

FWIW, it is an unusual study (IMO). They started with water that was already high in aluminum. In fact, the starting aluminum concentration (67.69 ug/L) is already above the published solubility limit of aluminum in seawater (see scientific paper below). How could any more dissolve (although one could get chunks pf particulates to reach higher levels, if any are being released)? They probably should have started with a more typical reef aquarium water, which in the absence of white media of various sorts, usually has little to no aluminum detected in Triton tests.

When you add soluble aluminum to seawater, only about 2 uM (54 ug/L) will actually remain in solution and any more will precipitate as aluminum hydroxide (see the table in the scientific paper linked below) .

Aluminum hydroxide’s solubility and the forms of dissolved aluminum’s occurrence in seawater
Oceanology April 2011, Volume 51, Issue 2, pp 231–234
https://istina.msu.ru/media/publications/article/b34/6a0/8552301/Oceanology-2011-2.pdf

 

[rkpetersen]

I just contacted customer support. They responded instantly. It dose not leach aluminum. Read this
http://cermedia.com/blog.php?p=142

A review of literature suggests there are many possible sources of aluminum in a reef system which the hobbyists should be aware of. A brief summary includes;
• 8 different Salt Mixes – between 6 and 8 ppm 1
•Commonly available salt mix – 0.110 ppm 2
• Calcium Oxide – 1 ppm 2
•Food – 8.1 to 120 ppm 3
• Phosphate Removing Media – ??4

Sorry but that blog post, from the maker of the product in question, also contains many errors and misstatements. It's not trustworthy or helpful. For example, modern salt mixes most definitely do not contain 6-8 ppm Al (that's 6000 to 8000 micrograms/l or ppb!), or even anything close to the 110 ppb mentioned for the 'commonly available salt mix'.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I just contacted customer support. They responded instantly. It dose not leach aluminum. Read this
http://cermedia.com/blog.php?p=142

lol

And that shows totally nothing. It's a faulty study for the obvious reason that they started too high in aluminum. Weird, actually.

 

[saltyhog]

Historically, leathers were the main thing that responded to aluminum from Phosguard (independent of the discussion of whether it is from particulate or soluble aluminum, leathers were the first responders), and those responded strongly in my tests of soluble aluminum, but not until levels above what most people see when using Marine Pure. The effects may be species dependent even among leathers, but there's almost no useful data on that.

In Jason's tests of a Marine Pure block, one of the main responders was a leather coral:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/h...t-leach-lets-guess.247034/page-9#post-2979612

"Effects that were noted after placing in the block:

1. Fiji Leather Coral quickly looked irritated and shrunk
2. Duncan retracted
3. One of my Bubble tips split (otherwise they looked great the entire time)
4. A single drastic short term drop in pH
5. All my sponges "shed" and shrunk

My Fiji Yellow Leather has not had full polyp extension the entire time the block was in place. It took over 2 weeks before it would start looking somewhat ok. The Duncan recovered fairly quickly. The sponges slowly started growing again.

Some of that I believe can be explained by a quick large growth of bacteria in the media (Duncan retracting and quick pH drop). But the longer term effects on the Fiji Leather I believe are more directly related to the Block and the Al content. I still don't know about the sponge if its directly but at least is indirectly related."

Thanks, I knew it was mainly a soft coral of some kind.

I never saw any problem with my duncan, it seemed to thrive. The highest aluminum level I had with the Marine Pure in place was 39 by Triton.

 

[rkpetersen]

Just to make it clear, those are levels that reefers also see when not using aluminum media of any sort, and are actually pretty close to Triton's stated limit of detection, so may be pretty noisy (if real at all):

That's possible Randy, but I've sent far more samples to both companies from my own tank, and they always read 0 or much less than 1 ppb, presumably due to removal of circulating aluminum by GFO, GAC, and aggressive skimming.

I do not know either Triton's or ATI's level of test precision, but I think these numbers are real, suggesting that there are indeed traces of Al in most salt mixes.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That's possible Randy, but I've sent far more samples to both companies from my own tank, and they always read 0 or much less than 1 ppb, presumably due to removal of circulating aluminum by GFO, GAC, and aggressive skimming.

I do not know either Triton's or ATI's level of test precision, but I think these numbers are real, suggesting that there are indeed traces of Al in most salt mixes.

I wasn't saying there was anything wrong with what you had written. I was primarily pointing out how much higher the MarinePure test started at before adding the products, compared to real results most reefers (such as yourself) got.

Randy

 

[rkpetersen]

Oh I know. I started reading that 'test' and was shaking my head vigorously before I knew it. ;Facepalm I have no particular issue with the product or the company that makes it, but publishing articles like that doesn't help their case any.

 

[VR28man]

Actually, I did several ICPOES spot checks of freshly mixed salt in the second half of 2017.

Reef Crystals: 1.4 ppb (Triton)
RPM: 2.6 ppb (Triton) 0.9 ppb (ATI)
Coral Pro: 3.6 ppb (Triton) 1.3 ppb (ATI
.

Cool, thank you! Would you mind posting the full numbers somewhere, maybe in a different thread? For those of us who like irrelevant data that we probably can’t use.

 

[CurtnStac]

The reason I had concerns is I recently upgraded to a 80g from a 33g and added marine pure. In the 33g my soft corals were flourishing. Now in my 80g they are struggling. Toads look ok but xenia is dying, shrooms look crappy, and my nepthea tree doesn't look good either. The only change, besides tanks, is the addition of marine pure. The 80g is only 3" higher then the 33g so lighting pretty much remained the same. I've been feeding the crap outta the tank so there are some nutrient, 5ppm nitrate, .03 phos, which is about where the last tank was. I don't have an aluminum test but reading that post raised concerns.

 

[dealseer]

I love my marinepure. My only concern is making sure nitrates don’t go too low.

 

[CurtnStac]

Yeah I threw away my black boxes once brs told me they were junk even though I was getting great results and I also discarded my aluminasilicate block made by marine pure even though I was having great results because the internet told me I should.

How would I know what to do if the internet didn't tell me

 

[rkpetersen]

The reason I had concerns is I recently upgraded to a 80g from a 33g and added marine pure. In the 33g my soft corals were flourishing. Now in my 80g they are struggling. Toads look ok but xenia is dying, shrooms look crappy, and my nepthea tree doesn't look good either. The only change, besides tanks, is the addition of marine pure. The 80g is only 3" higher then the 33g so lighting pretty much remained the same. I've been feeding the crap outta the tank so there are some nutrient, 5ppm nitrate, .03 phos, which is about where the last tank was. I don't have an aluminum test but reading that post raised concerns.

I'd be looking at a hundred different things trying to figure out the issue. One of which would definitely be sending in a water sample to either Triton or ATI for ICPOES. I have done this when I had issues and found unexpected contamination (like excess tin from a prematurely rusting return pump) and accidental overdosage (iodine and strontium supplements, 'used as directed'.)

 

[Thales]

Why are people running Marine Pure in the first place? Is there really a compelling reason to do so?

 

[CurtnStac]

Why are people running Marine Pure in the first place? Is there really a compelling reason to do so?

I'll admit I hopped on the bandwagon. And I did it without really thinking it through. Regardless of if it does leach AL or not I don't think it's really needed in my tank. I don't have sps, only easy lps and soft. Also I don't overstock and I watch how I feed. In my 33g I never had a problem with high nutrients, and never ran a skimmer, so I don't know why I thought I would have a problem in an 80 gal

 

[Nobbygas]

lol

Did you measure aluminum? If not, what indications do you not have?

It didn't show up on any Triton tests.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It didn't show up on any Triton tests.

Thanks. How long after adding it did you wait to take a water sample for Triton?

 

[rosshamsandwich]

Can Carbon activated remove aluminum?

 

[jnvd3b]

Randy and others who mentioned it lowers Nitrates, I thought that was also disproven by BRS??

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Can Carbon activated remove aluminum?

I do not know. If it did, I think it would be by organics binding the aluminum and the organics in turn binding to the GAC.