urgent suggestions needed: treat ICH in DT or in QT

[radicaltour]

(1) I added an Achilles Tang from liveaquaria 3 days ago into my DT and now he's covered in ich.
(2) 8 other fish in the tank seem to be fine
(3) I have 2 fish (princess anthias and midas blenny) being delivered tomorrow morning. :-(
(4) My DT doesn't have any corals, just a couple of shrimps and snails

How should I handle the ich and new fish?
Do copper/hyposalinity directly in the DT?
Do copper/hyposalinity just on the Archilles in a QT?
But what to do with the new fish?

Thanks everyone.
-Dave

 

[alyee5]

wow...what predicament...I don't suppose you have 2 QT's on hand (one for current fish and one for new fish)?
If you only have 1 QT as your optionI believe the stringent plan would be
1) QT's all fish (current and new) and treat
2) leave DT fallow for 76 days
I understand that treating copper in a DT with rock is not recommended as rock and sand would absorb the copper.

You could also take the ICH management route and treat the known sick fish...Humblefish has a good sticky on that...

I am sure others will have even more solid advice to share...

 

[Humblefish]

An Achilles won't last long with ich, read this: https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/ich-and-acanthurus-tangs-years-of-experience-and-ich-management.106/

Even worse, "covered in ich" oftentimes means velvet is in play: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-amyloodinium-ocellatum.217570/

Please post photos of the Achilles ASAP to confirm diagnosis, but I highly recommend to get ready to QT all your fish and treat with copper.

 

[melypr1985]

I agree with both above. Pictures of the Achilles would be great. Acanthurus tangs just can't live long in these situations. What size is the QT tank? If it's large enough I would suggest putting all fish- including the new- into the QT and running copper or CP (depending on the species involed) and leaving the display fallow for the, aforementioned, 76 days.

 

[radicaltour]

Taking the rocks, inverts and sand out of the DT is an option for me. Could I do that and treat copper in the DT?

 

[melypr1985]

Taking out the rocks, inverts and sand out of the DT is an option for me. Could I do that and treat copper in the DT?

You could, but then the display will need to be cleaned thoroughly afterward and left to dry before putting everything back together. otherwise you will be running carbon and doing water changes for a while until you are sure there isn't any more copper in the water. I don't like hypo especially since we arn't totally sure this isn't velvet on the Tang.

 

[radicaltour]

Thank you all for the suggestions so far.

I'm getting a QT ready now.
Should I push my luck and only treat the Achilles first?
The other fish (mainly anthias) seem fine and I'm afraid my inexperience with QT may likely tip the scale in their demise.

 

[alyee5]

Best to post pictures asap as mentioned. If it is velvet and not ICH you are risking all of fish by not acting now. Good luck!

 

[melypr1985]

Thank you all for the suggestions so far.

I'm getting a QT ready now.
Should I push my luck and only treat the Achilles first?
The other fish (mainly anthias) seem fine and I'm afraid my inexperience with QT may likely tip the scale in their demise.

Treating only the Achiles would spell problems. What would you do with him after he's completed QT and is disease free? You can't put him the display since he would just get infected again - and quickly considering what he is. You would end up with him in that QT for even longer, while you set up a second QT for the anthias and whoever is left, treat them and all the while leaving the display fallow. At the end of 76 days they go back in together. Seems like it's easier to just do them all together if you have a big enough QT. Just a suggestion of course, you have to go with what you are capable of pulling off with the most success.

 

[melypr1985]

The other fish (mainly anthias) seem fine and I'm afraid my inexperience with QT may likely tip the scale in their demise.

Oh and as long as you do a bit of reading on how to do the treatment, ask lots of questions and perform each step with care and purpose, the fish should be fine. We are hear to help you along the way as well. Sometimes inaction is worse than action... even if the action will be crazy and confusing.

 

[radicaltour]

At 11am this morning the tang didn't seem to have any white spots.
I'm now able to catch him with ease and he's leaning sideways.

 

[radicaltour]

the Majestic Angel seems to be doomed as well.

 

[melypr1985]

I hate to say it, but I'm leaning toward velvet on this one. I wanted so bad to just say it's ick. Read this link on how to treat. I suggest doing so quickly. Velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum) Just follow the directions and you will do just fine. Velvet can act very quickly so losses may happen, but we want to help minimize that by acting with these instructions as soon as possible.

If it helps, even if this is ick and I'm wrong here, this protocol will treat ick as well. Either way you are covered.

 

[radicaltour]

Well, I followed Humblefish's great instructions but it looks like it was too late for the Achilles.
After a 4-minute freshwater dip I put it back into QT and it hasn't moved, lying at the bottom of the tank. :-(
The Majestic Angel seems to be doing okay.
I'll be happy if any of them survives.

 

[melypr1985]

Well, I followed Humblefish's great instructions but it looks like it was too late for the Achilles.
After a 4-minute freshwater dip I put it back into QT and it hasn't moved, lying at the bottom of the tank. :-(
The Majestic Angel seems to be doing okay.
I'll be happy if any of them survives.

I'm sorry hun. If he's not dead yet, then there's still some hope. Get him into copper Asap then and start ramping it up.

 

[Humblefish]

@radicaltour Even if you don't have formalin or acriflavine on hand, still do the FW dip on each & every fish before putting them into QT and treating with copper. Noga (2000) and Noga & Levy (1995) both reported that a single (5 minute) freshwater dip would remove 80-90% of the parasites. This clears the gills of parasites, so the fish can breathe again, and gives the fish a fighting chance moving forward.

 

[radicaltour]

noob questions:
(1) I'd started the QT with water from my DT. Going forward should I only top off the QT with new salt water mix?

(2) Should I place a filter from my DT into the QT to jump start it?
Wouldn't copper kill the bacteria anyways?

(3) Should I dose nitrifying bacteria (microbacter 7) daily to prevent QT from being too sterile?

 

[Humblefish]

(1) I'd started the QT with water from my DT. Going forward should I only top off the QT with new salt water mix?

Use new salt water only to prevent cross contamination/reinfection. However, you normally would "top off" using RODI to compensate for evaporation.

(2) Should I place a filter from my DT into the QT to jump start it?
Wouldn't copper kill the bacteria anyways?

No, DT is now off limits for 6 weeks (or 76 days would be better) to prevent cross contamination. What you can do is seed bio-media in a 5 gallon bucket somewhere, using a bacteria in a bottle product (exs. Bio-Spira, Seachem Stability or Dr Tim's Nitrifying Bacteria) for a few days before placing in your QT.

(3) Should I dose nitrifying bacteria (microbacter 7) daily to prevent QT from being too sterile?

Yes, but do it in a bucket or container (see above) using new salt water only. The copper in the QT will just zap the nitrifying bacteria as soon as it hits the water. But if you give it time to embed into bio-media for 3-5 days before exposing it to copper water, some of the bacteria will survive and adapt.

 

[Humblefish]

@radicaltour

QT filter:

Bio-media:

Seed a sponge (or multiples) in a bucket using your Microbacter 7. Dose it 2-3x daily. It's a good idea to keep temp stable (by using a heater) and an airstone (or small pump) to circulate the water.

 

[radicaltour]

@Humblefish
With 12 fish total (averaging 2"-3" each), should I put them all in one 30-gal QT?
Perhaps two QTs would be good in terms of reducing the chance of bad ammonia spikes?

Thank you again for all your help.