boxfish with ich

[laughing tang]

Just wanted to check in; our horned nose boxfish is doing very well. He loves his bloodworms but not much else, although we feed him everything including algae. We have him in hyposalinity because of ich but we are running into trouble with that; we got a milwaukee refractometer and then realized the water was at 1.010 for 2 weeks. We've lowered it to 1.009 but it is very hard to maintain with water changes; we've noticed our prepared water will be at 1.009 at preparation and a week later at 1.010. His water has dipped to 1.010 several times and if we'd truly count for 1.009 we'd be at day 2. In reality though, we've been on low salinity 16 days. So there is no way we can do a full 6 weeks (recommended by Humblefish due to new research). Any advice appreciated. We've moved him to a 55 gallon and he seems to enjoy the space, he has definitely grown.

We're not really sure how much to feed him. He seems hungry all the time, poops a lot. But he is pickier about anything other than bloodworms. No evidence of parasites. Here's video of him this evening. Pardon the dirty glass, I have to siphon the tank a lot. He is very engaging but does not like the phone; he definitely sees it and doesn't know what it is.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Just wanted to check in; our horned nose boxfish is doing very well. He loves his bloodworms but not much else, although we feed him everything including algae. We have him in hyposalinity because of ich but we are running into trouble with that; we got a milwaukee refractometer and then realized the water was at 1.010 for 2 weeks. We've lowered it to 1.009 but it is very hard to maintain with water changes; we've noticed our prepared water will be at 1.009 at preparation and a week later at 1.010. His water has dipped to 1.010 several times and if we'd truly count for 1.009 we'd be at day 2. In reality though, we've been on low salinity 16 days. So there is no way we can do a full 6 weeks (recommended by Humblefish due to new research). Any advice appreciated. We've moved him to a 55 gallon and he seems to enjoy the space, he has definitely grown.

We're not really sure how much to feed him. He seems hungry all the time, poops a lot. But he is pickier about anything other than bloodworms. No evidence of parasites. Here's video of him this evening. Pardon the dirty glass, I have to siphon the tank a lot. He is very engaging but does not like the phone; he definitely sees it and doesn't know what it is.

The six weeks time (45 days really) is the fallow time frame we use here. Humblefish used to recommend 76 days, but that was based on a single paper that wasn’t really valid.

30 days of hyposalinity at 1.009 beyond the date the spots went away is fine. Some people say that if the salinity goes above the set point you have to “restart”, but 1.010 isn’t that high.

 

[laughing tang]

The six weeks time (45 days really) is the fallow time frame we use here. Humblefish used to recommend 76 days, but that was based on a single paper that wasn’t really valid.

30 days of hyposalinity at 1.009 beyond the date the spots went away is fine. Some people say that if the salinity goes above the set point you have to “restart”, but 1.010 isn’t that high.

Thanks Jay.

So yesterday and today we are seeing increasingly that he is tilting during swimming and trying to scrape his back on the glass. We noticed an ich spot on his back, so it looks like the hypo is not doing the trick. We struggled getting it low enough, and realistically while we've been working on it day 18, we only reached 1.009 4 days ago. Suggestions? PH in the 7.9 range (hard to keep up), dkh is 6.7, no way to get that up in HS. We did start dripping kalkwasser yesterday to up the PH, previously it was in the 7.6 range. I saw this behavior starting slightly about 3 days ago. Thank you. Here's a video

Update: SG was slightly above 1.009 - between 1.009 and 1.010. We lowered it to 1.009, he seems to be doing better and the spot seems to have disappeared. I worry that we are curing the ich and if we start raising SG in 2 weeks, he will have a massive ich outbreak, then it will take 2 weeks to get up to 1.025 before we could use copper.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks Jay.

So yesterday and today we are seeing increasingly that he is tilting during swimming and trying to scrape his back on the glass. We noticed an ich spot on his back, so it looks like the hypo is not doing the trick. We struggled getting it low enough, and realistically while we've been working on it day 18, we only reached 1.009 4 days ago. Suggestions? PH in the 7.9 range (hard to keep up), dkh is 6.7, no way to get that up in HS. We did start dripping kalkwasser yesterday to up the PH, previously it was in the 7.6 range. I saw this behavior starting slightly about 3 days ago. Thank you. Here's a video

Update: SG was slightly above 1.009 - between 1.009 and 1.010. We lowered it to 1.009, he seems to be doing better and the spot seems to have disappeared. I worry that we are curing the ich and if we start raising SG in 2 weeks, he will have a massive ich outbreak, then it will take 2 weeks to get up to 1.025 before we could use copper.

It is trying to scratch its back, but that by itself isn’t a serious symptom. Is it eating?

For pH control, don’t worry as long as the pH is above 7.7 Adding aeration can raise the pH if you don’t already have good aeration.

For best control, you should hold the fish at hypo for 21 days after the last spot was seen, even 30 days if you want to be extra safe.

You need to take 5 days of gradual raising twice a day to bring the fish out of hypo, I can help you with the math if needed.

 

[laughing tang]

He eats well. After calibrating our refractometer once again it was slightly above 1.009. we adjusted down and he's been great since and the spot disappeared. But it worries me that we've now had him in low salinity since June 9, how long can we go before it damages him? We could add TTM (with hypo) since he recovered from the transfer to the 55 gallon relatively quickly. I would hope he recognizes his old 20 gallon qtank. I don't want to unduly stress him but if we start raising salinity around July 9 I fear the ich will come back with a vengeance.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

He eats well. After calibrating our refractometer once again it was slightly above 1.009. we adjusted down and he's been great since and the spot disappeared. But it worries me that we've now had him in low salinity since June 9, how long can we go before it damages him? We could add TTM (with hypo) since he recovered from the transfer to the 55 gallon relatively quickly. I would hope he recognizes his old 20 gallon qtank. I don't want to unduly stress him but if we start raising salinity around July 9 I fear the ich will come back with a vengeance.

Skip the TTM, moving this species is too stressful. I don't worry until a fish has been at full hypo for 30 days, and I routinely go 45 days. That doesn't mean the fish won't die during hypo - lots of things kill fish and not all are obvious.

 

[laughing tang]

Ok. Thank you for your advice. We'll plan on going 45 days then.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Ok. Thank you for your advice. We'll plan on going 45 days then.

You should go 30 days beyond when the symptoms went away.

 

[laughing tang]

So that was my point. If 2 days ago was when he had a spot, then we'd need to go another 30 days. He's already been in hypo since 6/9. Then we're looking at hypo from 6/9 to 7/26.

 

[laughing tang]

Just an update that "Dicky" (a la spotted dick, you can't say my husband doesn't have a sense of humor) is still doing very well. He eats ferociously and gets some algae, blackworms, brine shrimp and rod's every day. The rods is fed by hand which is really very cute. He has grown. He is super personable. In 10 days if all goes well, we will have reached 30 days hyposalinity since the last spot disappeared, so on 7/25 we plan to start raising salinity. Since we started hyposalinity on 6/9 he will be at 54 days at that point. I read 60 days should really be the max for hyposalinity so that leaves us 6 days to get it up. I was hoping to be able to do it more slowly for his benefit (max 0.001 per day). But that would land us at another 15 days of hyposalinity. What is our best tradeoff here? Go slow with the 0.001 per day? I want to stress him as least as possible. My concern is also a strategy if the ich returns while we are increasing salinity. At that point obviously HS is no longer an option, but we'd have to get up to normal HS for copper I take it.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Just an update that "Dicky" (a la spotted dick, you can't say my husband doesn't have a sense of humor) is still doing very well. He eats ferociously and gets some algae, blackworms, brine shrimp and rod's every day. The rods is fed by hand which is really very cute. He has grown. He is super personable. In 10 days if all goes well, we will have reached 30 days hyposalinity since the last spot disappeared, so on 7/25 we plan to start raising salinity. Since we started hyposalinity on 6/9 he will be at 54 days at that point. I read 60 days should really be the max for hyposalinity so that leaves us 6 days to get it up. I was hoping to be able to do it more slowly for his benefit (max 0.001 per day). But that would land us at another 9 days of hyposalinity. What is our best tradeoff here? Go slow with the 0.001 per day? I want to stress him as least as possible. My concern is also a strategy if the ich returns while we are increasing salinity. At that point obviously HS is no longer an option, but we'd have to get up to normal HS for copper I take it.

You can raise the specific gravity by 0.002 units a day if you do it in two steps, 8 to 12 hours apart. People go faster than that sometimes, but I like to take it slower.

 

[laughing tang]

You can raise the specific gravity by 0.002 units a day if you do it in two steps, 8 to 12 hours apart. People go faster than that sometimes, but I like to take it slower.

Thanks Jay. Yes, you mentioned that before, and we can certainly do that; I'd definitely not want to go faster. I also ready adding more airstones in the tank might help during this time. Can I ask, is the stress of this overall each time or is it harder on the low end than the high end or reverse (if that makes sense)?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks Jay. Yes, you mentioned that before, and we can certainly do that; I'd definitely not want to go faster. I also ready adding more airstones in the tank might help during this time. Can I ask, is the stress of this overall each time or is it harder on the low end than the high end or reverse (if that makes sense)?

Good question - if I understand you, is the stress for raising the salinity linear, or is there part of the rise that is more stressful than another? I don’t know for sure. I do know that the stress can be additive. The first change causes no issue, but subsequent ones can be. I think what happens is that the residual physiological stress from one change doesn’t completely go away by the time you do the second one, etc.

 

[laughing tang]

Good question - if I understand you, is the stress for raising the salinity linear, or is there part of the rise that is more stressful than another? I don’t know for sure. I do know that the stress can be additive. The first change causes no issue, but subsequent ones can be. I think what happens is that the residual physiological stress from one change doesn’t completely go away by the time you do the second one, etc.

Thank you, yes that was my question in clearer phrasing. Good to know. We are struggling a bit to figure out how to raise SG. He's in a 55 ish gallon with a smallish sump of indeterminate size., hard to estimate a completely accurate volume. I am guessing the best strategy is to add very salty water? This means big water changes which may also stress him out. I'm presuming that adding just salt is far to dangerous. We are using instant ocean for QT. Any advice appreciated.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thank you, yes that was my question in clearer phrasing. Good to know. We are struggling a bit to figure out how to raise SG. He's in a 55 ish gallon with a smallish sump of indeterminate size., hard to estimate a completely accurate volume. I am guessing the best strategy is to add very salty water? This means big water changes which may also stress him out. I'm presuming that adding just salt is far to dangerous. We are using instant ocean for QT. Any advice appreciated.

That’s always a tough thing. Some people just add salt to their sump and let it dissolve into the main tank. Other people mix up hyper saline water, and do water changes with that. The is some risk in doing that because hyper saline water can cause some salts to precipitate out of solution. I would go higher than a specific gravity of 1.050 if you go that route.

 

[laughing tang]

That’s always a tough thing. Some people just add salt to their sump and let it dissolve into the main tank. Other people mix up hyper saline water, and do water changes with that. The is some risk in doing that because hyper saline water can cause some salts to precipitate out of solution. I would go higher than a specific gravity of 1.050 if you go that route.

Thanks Jay. We have formulated a plan and were all set to start next Friday but the last 2 days I've noticed him swimming oddly as if to scratch and this morning the behavior was very evident. We confirmed SG is still at 1.009. Ammonia 0.12 ppm and nitrite 10 ppb, pH 7.93 (doing water change so flow is stopped), orp normal, temp normal. Testing calcium, dkh now.

We are worried it's HS resistant ich, or possibly length of total time in HS (since 6/9). 23 days since the last spot disappeared, day 41 total of HS.

Any thoughts much appreciated.

 

[laughing tang]

Note: sg is 1.009 on the Milwaukee. In the analog refractometer its 1.009 when calibrated with saltwater, but 1.011 when calibrated with rodi. It's really maddening.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks Jay. We have formulated a plan and were all set to start next Friday but the last 2 days I've noticed him swimming oddly as if to scratch and this morning the behavior was very evident. We confirmed SG is still at 1.009. Ammonia 0.12 ppm and nitrite 10 ppb, pH 7.93 (doing water change so flow is stopped), orp normal, temp normal. Testing calcium, dkh now.

We are worried it's HS resistant ich, or possibly length of total time in HS (since 6/9). 23 days since the last spot disappeared, day 41 total of HS.

Any thoughts much appreciated.

I just replied to your other post, not realizing that this was from another thread....

There isn't really "hyposalinity resistant ich", there are strains of ich that can handle lower salinity, and some strains that can handle lower temperatures, but a true specific gravity of 1.009 will eradicate those.

Flukes can cause fish to scratch, but hypo eliminates most species of flukes.

How are you measuring the ammonia? Seems to me that it should be at zero given the tank's history.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Note: sg is 1.009 on the Milwaukee. In the analog refractometer its 1.009 when calibrated with saltwater, but 1.011 when calibrated with rodi. It's really maddening.

I've had a horrendous time accurately measuring specific gravity, ballparking is easy, but there isn't much room for error with hypo....In the end, I use a glass German laboratory hydrometer. For people without that, I always suggest measuring with multiple devices and either look for a consensus, or average the results.

Here is a link to an article I had posted:

Measuring Salinity / Specific Gravity in Aquariums

This article gives an overview of measuring specific gravity / salinity in aquariums.

www.reef2reef.com

 

[laughing tang]

Ammonia is Hanna. He's in a QT without live Rock, so it's quite sterile, no bacterial load.