Turtilinni
Community Member
Hello again Reef2Reef Members, my name is Jasper and I posted here a few months ago about Bangaii breeding, see my profile for further history. Tldr I have a pair of breeding Bangaii, first birth the father spewed many of his eggs early but I caught them. I got some great knowledge from the people here and I had set up a DIY egg tumbler by the end of the night. I saw around 20-30 babies throughout the whole process which I hear is about clutch size. I lost some from the poorly designed DIY egg tumbler, others did not survive long enough to start eating. Once they were transferred from the egg tumbler to a breeding box, where the other half were born, I had about eight babies total. They were small and slow to start swimming, from what I understand they were trying to get their swim bladders going or something like that. During that phase at one point rolled over next to the tiny piece of the bottom of the breeder box that had indentations on it. This allowed my phone camera to focus and capture the attached photo of one of the babies, who was still incredibly young.
Over the next month, the babies lived long enough that the parent fish got pregnant again, began to swim around the box and chased food to eat. I noticed one baby was deformed with an extra fin next to his face, he lived a surprisingly long time just pecking food off the bottom, never able to go swim to the top. I noticed one by one the babies did slowly die off, I never saw it happen but would often find them dead on the edge vents of the box no longer moving against the relatively calm water. They ate well, were growing distinct fins and in size, I could see them hunting down the food but they kept dying off until I was left with none.
What are the possible factors that could have caused this? Food is the big one but I want to cover a few others first. The box itself was a betta breeder box that honestly looked like it was from the 80's. I can't say it did not work, it was around the size of a tissue box, had slits on the sides too small for the babies to get out and a V-style design where the parent fish dropped the babies and they get caught in the bottom. It worked well for sifting babies from the father, but I do wonder about it as a place for keeping the babies. I did not have somewhere to keep the babies outside of a spare container, but even that would require a spare heater etc so it was simpler for me to just keep the babies in the breeder box. Was this a mistake? They ate well in it and grew for the first while, but I would worry about how much water was moving through as the box just floats in the tank and can get stuck for long periods in one place.
After the box was other tank mates, which mostly were not a problem, except for one morning when I awoke to my cleaner shrimp eating babies on edge grates. They could stick their spindly little hands through and grab the babies. This was early on in everything and I do not think they ate many, but I had to move them to my sump for the rest of the process for the baby's safety.
My water quality has been stable for a while now, the specifics are on my build thread but I have been growing coraline algae and keeping fish alive like never before lately so I somewhat doubt it was a water problem, at the same time this is the only breeding I have ever done so if there is anything that would help this process parameter wise I am open to suggestions.
The food is most controversial, I went frozen. Canned cyclopods and frozen Calanus I think it was? The red fuzzy tiny ones. I heard it was impossible to raise these babies on frozen food, and maybe I was proven right by this experiment. But I also heard a lot that they would not ever eat frozen food, and I distinctly saw these baby fish eat enough calanus that you could see the red in the stomachs. Indeed, they do not eat any food off the bottom, but as long as food is moving through their area they will eat it. What was harder honestly was consistently feeding them, as it felt like if they did not at least get food at the start and end of the day I would lose one. So why do I not have a brine shrimp farm running right behind me you may be thinking? It is the most common advice I found on this topic, and I was right on board until I got to my LFS. Now this is the part that I think is completely... well subjective. I want to say now that I am open to hearing why or why not you agree with my LFS owner, I just want you to understand that I do trust this man to an extent. I live in Calgary, we have a couple of small saltwater stores and one larger pet store that carries some exotic saltwater stuff along with fresh, birds, hamsters etc. The place I go is called Wai's Aquariums, it is incredibly small, filled to the brim with only saltwater tanks and run by one man named Wai. Wai does not speak perfect English but I have always trusted him a fair amount as his tanks and coral specifically are far better than any other store in the city by miles. He certainly can be a salesperson just trying to make a dime, but I have also had more success with his advice than most other LFS employees or owners, who usually only have salt as a small side business to their larger freshwater occupation. This is all to say this is a pretty experienced reefer in my opinion, he just had an opinion himself that I believe is different from the popular consensus on here. I simply went to buy Mysis shrimp eggs, and he told me he never kept them. I explained most all of what I have written up to this point and why I was interested in Brine shrimp, and he took me to his frag tanks. In each one there was a pair of breeding Bangaii, and as he explained the very Bangaii I bought from him were most likely born in these frag tanks and raised the same way he raised all of his Bangaii babies, on frozen food. Cyclops and Calanus, just as I had. He believes I can find success without the use of any live foods, and contends that he has raised all of his Bangaii spawn for years on frozen and canned food. This is why I have not "Invested" (Ik it is relatively cheap and easy) in baby brine shrimp so far. Do you think I should for this next pregnancy? I am interested in all opinions on this matter.
Finally speaking of next time, there have been two next times so far. First, the pair had a pregnancy immediately after the first one, and a bit tired from the entire first ordeal I let them release into the rest of the tank where they were presumably eaten. I did find some babies in my sump sock when washing it a few days later. They then let things be for the rest of September and the start of October until a few days ago when the mating dances began, and now we have a pregnant dad again. What should I do differently for this pregnancy for more success? My goal right now is to get a baby to adulthood, it will probably take a lot more work but I am interested in trying my hand after the magical experience of having my first fish birth and getting to see those tiny babies grow up in front of my eyes. Catching the actual father fish is also something else I could use some experienced breeder to help with. Wow, do those Bangaii move fast, especially when pregnant. During the first pregnancy, I had to take the majority of my rockwork out to get to get them netted. It was a total pain, took tons of work, and of course, screwed up my nice rockwork. How do you catch a pregnant fish from a display tank with intricate rockwork? Is there some sort of trap that would work? Because with the dad fishes mouth full of babies you can't bait them with food. I also have tried leaving a net in and raising it when the lights are off but the always wake up the second I start moving the nets.
Sorry for the long wording and lengthy problems, I am always of the mind that overexplaining in the original post saves everyone from basic follow-up questions, but I do understand that my writing can be a bit rambly and long. Thank you for reading, any advice on this general topic or any of the specific sub-areas that I am wondering about would be ideal and I will always be around to answer any prudent questions. ~Jasper
Over the next month, the babies lived long enough that the parent fish got pregnant again, began to swim around the box and chased food to eat. I noticed one baby was deformed with an extra fin next to his face, he lived a surprisingly long time just pecking food off the bottom, never able to go swim to the top. I noticed one by one the babies did slowly die off, I never saw it happen but would often find them dead on the edge vents of the box no longer moving against the relatively calm water. They ate well, were growing distinct fins and in size, I could see them hunting down the food but they kept dying off until I was left with none.
What are the possible factors that could have caused this? Food is the big one but I want to cover a few others first. The box itself was a betta breeder box that honestly looked like it was from the 80's. I can't say it did not work, it was around the size of a tissue box, had slits on the sides too small for the babies to get out and a V-style design where the parent fish dropped the babies and they get caught in the bottom. It worked well for sifting babies from the father, but I do wonder about it as a place for keeping the babies. I did not have somewhere to keep the babies outside of a spare container, but even that would require a spare heater etc so it was simpler for me to just keep the babies in the breeder box. Was this a mistake? They ate well in it and grew for the first while, but I would worry about how much water was moving through as the box just floats in the tank and can get stuck for long periods in one place.
After the box was other tank mates, which mostly were not a problem, except for one morning when I awoke to my cleaner shrimp eating babies on edge grates. They could stick their spindly little hands through and grab the babies. This was early on in everything and I do not think they ate many, but I had to move them to my sump for the rest of the process for the baby's safety.
My water quality has been stable for a while now, the specifics are on my build thread but I have been growing coraline algae and keeping fish alive like never before lately so I somewhat doubt it was a water problem, at the same time this is the only breeding I have ever done so if there is anything that would help this process parameter wise I am open to suggestions.
The food is most controversial, I went frozen. Canned cyclopods and frozen Calanus I think it was? The red fuzzy tiny ones. I heard it was impossible to raise these babies on frozen food, and maybe I was proven right by this experiment. But I also heard a lot that they would not ever eat frozen food, and I distinctly saw these baby fish eat enough calanus that you could see the red in the stomachs. Indeed, they do not eat any food off the bottom, but as long as food is moving through their area they will eat it. What was harder honestly was consistently feeding them, as it felt like if they did not at least get food at the start and end of the day I would lose one. So why do I not have a brine shrimp farm running right behind me you may be thinking? It is the most common advice I found on this topic, and I was right on board until I got to my LFS. Now this is the part that I think is completely... well subjective. I want to say now that I am open to hearing why or why not you agree with my LFS owner, I just want you to understand that I do trust this man to an extent. I live in Calgary, we have a couple of small saltwater stores and one larger pet store that carries some exotic saltwater stuff along with fresh, birds, hamsters etc. The place I go is called Wai's Aquariums, it is incredibly small, filled to the brim with only saltwater tanks and run by one man named Wai. Wai does not speak perfect English but I have always trusted him a fair amount as his tanks and coral specifically are far better than any other store in the city by miles. He certainly can be a salesperson just trying to make a dime, but I have also had more success with his advice than most other LFS employees or owners, who usually only have salt as a small side business to their larger freshwater occupation. This is all to say this is a pretty experienced reefer in my opinion, he just had an opinion himself that I believe is different from the popular consensus on here. I simply went to buy Mysis shrimp eggs, and he told me he never kept them. I explained most all of what I have written up to this point and why I was interested in Brine shrimp, and he took me to his frag tanks. In each one there was a pair of breeding Bangaii, and as he explained the very Bangaii I bought from him were most likely born in these frag tanks and raised the same way he raised all of his Bangaii babies, on frozen food. Cyclops and Calanus, just as I had. He believes I can find success without the use of any live foods, and contends that he has raised all of his Bangaii spawn for years on frozen and canned food. This is why I have not "Invested" (Ik it is relatively cheap and easy) in baby brine shrimp so far. Do you think I should for this next pregnancy? I am interested in all opinions on this matter.
Finally speaking of next time, there have been two next times so far. First, the pair had a pregnancy immediately after the first one, and a bit tired from the entire first ordeal I let them release into the rest of the tank where they were presumably eaten. I did find some babies in my sump sock when washing it a few days later. They then let things be for the rest of September and the start of October until a few days ago when the mating dances began, and now we have a pregnant dad again. What should I do differently for this pregnancy for more success? My goal right now is to get a baby to adulthood, it will probably take a lot more work but I am interested in trying my hand after the magical experience of having my first fish birth and getting to see those tiny babies grow up in front of my eyes. Catching the actual father fish is also something else I could use some experienced breeder to help with. Wow, do those Bangaii move fast, especially when pregnant. During the first pregnancy, I had to take the majority of my rockwork out to get to get them netted. It was a total pain, took tons of work, and of course, screwed up my nice rockwork. How do you catch a pregnant fish from a display tank with intricate rockwork? Is there some sort of trap that would work? Because with the dad fishes mouth full of babies you can't bait them with food. I also have tried leaving a net in and raising it when the lights are off but the always wake up the second I start moving the nets.
Sorry for the long wording and lengthy problems, I am always of the mind that overexplaining in the original post saves everyone from basic follow-up questions, but I do understand that my writing can be a bit rambly and long. Thank you for reading, any advice on this general topic or any of the specific sub-areas that I am wondering about would be ideal and I will always be around to answer any prudent questions. ~Jasper
