Fish breathing and swimming at flow @day 9 of copper, what is it?

[Hezam]

Hello everyone,

I have 3 fish in QT. They have been at 2.45 copper for almost 9 days tomorrow is day 10. 2 small juvenile tangs, sailfin and orange Shoulder and one copper band. The copper band is eating but not always. The CB and sailfin Tang are swimming at the bubbler/HOB. It's day 9 of copper I think that rules of velvet and ick right? The two tangs been eating very well. I am suspecting flukes but here's my problem, there isn't scratching. I've noticed it scratch once or twice. But that's it.

Here's the thing. This happened to me 3 times already with new sterilized tanks. But the same scenario always happens. Scratching at the second week of QT. I dose prazi with copper and all the fish die. I DON'T want to dose prazi with copper. Lost many fish that way. I did maximum aeration but the fish always die in a span of 12-24 hours after prazi. The water quality just goes down the drain and the fish die. I know that's it's not directly from the interaction from prazi and copper as many people do it, but for me I can't do it without having a nasty bloom.

I have an already cycled clean tank that I can transfer them into. Should I end copper early and treat for flukes with prazipro? Is it even flukes, or maybe velvet reinfection, something definitely bothering the gills. Not sure what is it.

Check the Video

 

[Tamberav]

I would personally do 14 days and then transfer and start prazi in the new tank. Follow this by a long observation period before they go to the DT as 14 days is more risky.

If you cut it early and they have something, you may need to start all over from day 1.

 

[Hezam]

I would personally do 14 days and then transfer and start prazi in the new tank. Follow this by a long observation period before they go to the DT as 14 days is more risky.

If you cut it early and they have something, you may need to start all over from day 1.

But the fish is already heavy breathing and something is bothering it's gills. Can it stay another 5 days in copper? I am afraid if it's flukes it will he overwhelmed and die before this week finishes.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hello everyone,

I have 3 fish in QT. They have been at 2.45 copper for almost 9 days tomorrow is day 10. 2 small juvenile tangs, sailfin and orange Shoulder and one copper band. The copper band is eating but not always. The CB and sailfin Tang are swimming at the bubbler/HOB. It's day 9 of copper I think that rules of velvet and ick right? The two tangs been eating very well. I am suspecting flukes but here's my problem, there isn't scratching. I've noticed it scratch once or twice. But that's it.

Here's the thing. This happened to me 3 times already with new sterilized tanks. But the same scenario always happens. Scratching at the second week of QT. I dose prazi with copper and all the fish die. I DON'T want to dose prazi with copper. Lost many fish that way. I did maximum aeration but the fish always die in a span of 12-24 hours after prazi. The water quality just goes down the drain and the fish die. I know that's it's not directly from the interaction from prazi and copper as many people do it, but for me I can't do it without having a nasty bloom.

I have an already cycled clean tank that I can transfer them into. Should I end copper early and treat for flukes with prazipro? Is it even flukes, or maybe velvet reinfection, something definitely bothering the gills. Not sure what is it.

Check the Video

Swimming in path of flow or bubbles are indicator of velvet or flukes. Flukes will come with other signs such as scratching, twitching, yawning, loss of appetite and heavy breathing. This can also be an oxygen issue if what you call bubbler is only method of oxygen. Any other filters being utilized and are you monitoring ammonia level?
If flukes, prazi would be administered at 85% of recommended dosage and apply initial dosage known as an interval for 8 days, do a water change and do one more 8 day dose interval
Use airstone with prazi as it does reduce both oxygen and appetite.
Can you post pics of entire tank?

 

[Tamberav]

But the fish is already heavy breathing and something is bothering it's gills. Can it stay another 5 days in copper? I am afraid if it's flukes it will he overwhelmed and die before this week finishes.

With no scratching, shaking head, yawning, I am hesitant to think it would be a heavy fluke infestation and it seems you do not want to mix the meds.

Are we sure there is no ammonia issue? What size is the tank?

If you decide to move and try prazi, I would either restart copper after (keep in mind velvet/ich can get through with only 9 days and possibly gain hold during the break with prazi) or do a super long observation, 4-6 weeks before going to the DT. Obs tank needs to be big enough and comfortable enough (proper hiding spots, personally I hate PVC and think fish are still nervous using those) for that long of obs.

 

[Hezam]

Swimming in path of flow or bubbles are indicator of velvet or flukes. Flukes will come with other signs such as scratching, twitching, yawning, loss of appetite and heavy breathing. This can also be an oxygen issue if what you call bubbler is only method of oxygen. Any other filters being utilized and are you monitoring ammonia level?
If flukes, prazi would be administered at 85% of recommended dosage and apply initial dosage known as an interval for 8 days, do a water change and do one more 8 day dose interval
Use airstone with prazi as it does reduce both oxygen and appetite.
Can you post pics of entire tank?

There's an oversized HOB in the tank, one air stone and one sponge filter, not sure why I called it a bubbler.

Yes I test ammonia 2 times a day its always zero, I water change every two days with treated water with copper at 2.45. it's a 15 gallon tank.

I will take pictures in a second. I am really reluctant to dose prazi with copper. I killed all my fish that way first two times.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

There's an oversized HOB in the tank, one air stone and one sponge filter, not sure why I called it a bubbler.

Yes I test ammonia 2 times a day its always zero, I water change every two days with treated water with copper at 2.45. it's a 15 gallon tank.

I will take pictures in a second. I am really reluctant to dose prazi with copper. I killed all my fish that way first two times.

A clear video would tell me much more than a still picture would.....

 

[vetteguy53081]

There's an oversized HOB in the tank, one air stone and one sponge filter, not sure why I called it a bubbler.

Yes I test ammonia 2 times a day its always zero, I water change every two days with treated water with copper at 2.45. it's a 15 gallon tank.

I will take pictures in a second. I am really reluctant to dose prazi with copper. I killed all my fish that way first two times.

I do not recommend mixing both. How are you testing ammonia and again video will be of help with assessment and what copper test kit are you using?

 

[exnisstech]

Do you do observation first or strait to meds?

 

[Hezam]

 

[Hezam]

 

[Hezam]

A clear video would tell me much more than a still picture would.....

I submitted video of the fish close up and of the tank in general. The situation isn't that bad, they aren't full on dying/heavy breathing. But something is bothering them with the gills.

I do not recommend mixing both. How are you testing ammonia and again video will be of help with assessment and what copper test kit are you using?

Testing ammonia with the Salifert test kit and copper with Hanna test kit. Video is submitted up.

Do you do observation first or strait to meds?

I did straight to meds, the LFS I deal with is horrible and is known for disease. Unfortunately it's the only one in my country. I for sure know that the LFS has either ick or velvet. The fish don't last a week at their store. That's why I dropped them into 2.0 copper then raised slowly to 2.5

 

[Hezam]

I just noticed the sailfin upper fins are slightly damaged and discolored, is that the beginning of fin rot? Wasn't there yesterday or this week. Like the video above, it's swims around a bit then goes over the sponge filter then goes around. The copperband is permanently staying at the HOB path of flow. The orange shoulder is the most normal one of them all swimming fast and somewhat erratic but not showing symptoms

The reason why I am nervous is that this is my fourth attempt at quarantine. All of them I encounter the same situation. Fish start acting weird at the second week. They eat fine and act fine first week in copper. Then starting deteriorating fast week 2 after I dose prazi week 2. Thats why I am adamant on not mixing meds. I am just wondering if they are having a full on flukes infestation or not. They are all swimming near the top. There is enough oxygen in the tank I am pretty sure. It's like all the velvet symptoms. I tested copper kid you not more than 10 times in one week. Pretty sure it's exactly at 2.49 ppm.

 

[exnisstech]

I did straight to meds, the LFS I deal with is horrible and is known for disease. Unfortunately it's the only one in my country. I for sure know that the LFS has either ick or velvet. The fish don't last a week at their store. That's why I dropped them into 2.0 copper then raised slowly to 2.5

Makes sense under those conditions. Wishing you lucks with these guys.

 

[MnFish1]

Though it's not common - I would consider double-checking your copper result with a different test. Second - though I agree with @vetteguy53081 that using the 2 medications is not optimal, in a situation where you're doing a QT and something appears to be coming up thats not treatable with copper, you can add the 2 together. The good news is that clowns tolerate medications fairly well. If there is any evidence of worsening, I would continue the copper for 30 days and add prazipro per the protocol. Hope this helps - good luck!

 

[vetteguy53081]

I submitted video of the fish close up and of the tank in general. The situation isn't that bad, they aren't full on dying/heavy breathing. But something is bothering them with the gills.

Testing ammonia with the Salifert test kit and copper with Hanna test kit. Video is submitted up.

I did straight to meds, the LFS I deal with is horrible and is known for disease. Unfortunately it's the only one in my country. I for sure know that the LFS has either ick or velvet. The fish don't last a week at their store. That's why I dropped them into 2.0 copper then raised slowly to 2.5

Good kits and thanks for confirming

 

[Hezam]

Though it's not common - I would consider double-checking your copper result with a different test. Second - though I agree with @vetteguy53081 that using the 2 medications is not optimal, in a situation where you're doing a QT and something appears to be coming up thats not treatable with copper, you can add the 2 together. The good news is that clowns tolerate medications fairly well. If there is any evidence of worsening, I would continue the copper for 30 days and add prazipro per the protocol. Hope this helps - good luck!

Hmm although Hanna could be wrong, I am pretty sure it's working fine. I dosed according to fishotel calculator and it got me exactly where I needed to be. I also changed the reagents midway through the week to a different batch and it's exactly the same readings. Here's my tracking sheet.

 

[Hezam]

Hey guys I managed to pull out my old canon to actually take some better photos. What I noticed is that the sailfin tangs Fins are looking bad, it wasn't like that at all in the 2 days ago. Also there is some pitting near the eyes. What could that be? Other fish visually look fine.

Surprisingly both tangs are still eating! They just ate some pellets

 

[MnFish1]

I see no lesions on the tang

 

[Hezam]

I see no lesions on the tang

Sorry by lesions what do you mean, as damaged tissue by flukes? Am I able to see that