I Was Wrong

[Ordovician_Reef]

Hardly soapboxing here but reminding that the “mayor” will shut down a great, productive thread (finally)…
Anyway, usually sans the political stuff (I’m also sometimes guilty) …. this is a pretty good/important topic
I’ve been sorta “solutions” focused anymore…..

As for cause/effect/politics/et ,,,, safe to say that anymore seems NOBODY is stepping outside their own preset biases, that IMO have been brainwashed by the media(s) we choose to home in on (further convincing/reinforcing already held beliefs)

…we should strive to listen to opposing ideas and drill into why the opposition is likewise oppositely convinced

I am not trying to change anyone's views, simply stating what are accepted scientific facts. The same ones I teach my students each semester.

My views are not informed by the media, I did 16 hours of graduate work in climate dynamics, worked with a member of the IPCC and my MS Thesis was strongly grounded in climate modeling. My views are informed by science and the consensus of the scientific community and this is a topic with which I have spent a LOT of time .

That being said, I am also not going to 'argue' the point with someone who 'feels' or 'thinks' something about geologic history I am simply stating facts, they are free to accept or reject them.

 

[Ordovician_Reef]

What is it exactly you are saying? Whats the plan? Just trying to understand what you wrote. Sorry I don't fully understand the implications. Do we burn more? Less? Different things?

We have to create energy or our lifestyle will be changed to the point where no-one will participate.

Long term we simply have to stop burning fossil fuels, there is no way around that. We also must take steps to increase the rate at which CO2 is removed from the atmosphere.

 

[blaxsun]

If they interbreed, they have by definition gone extinct. They will simply be absorbed into the much larger Brown Bear population.

Assuming every single polar bear interbreeds, which is unlikely. Polar bears have been around for roughly a million years - during which time the Earth has been much warmer (and also much colder).

So how'd they survive during periods where it was much hotter (and no ice) and even much colder (where there may have only been ice and no ocean water)?

 

[Ordovician_Reef]

Assuming every single polar bear interbreeds, which is unlikely. Polar bears have been around for roughly a million years - during which time the Earth has been much warmer (and also much colder).

So how'd they survive during periods where it was much hotter (and no ice) and even much colder (where there may have only been ice and no ocean water)?

It has not been 'much' warmer or colder in the past 1 million years. Temps for the last million years have been governed by a period of glacial, inter-glacial (caused by variations in the Earth's orbital parameters). Those variations are no longer going to occur and the planet will continue to warm due to CO2 now being the 1st order control.

In many ways, temperature may not be the biggest concern (at least to reefs) but pH which will continue to decline as co2 concentrations increase. This makes it metabolically more 'expensive' for corals (and many other marine organisms) to crystalize aranonite.

 

[blaxsun]

The second graph makes my point. There were periods where the Earth was both warmer and colder in the past 1 million years - and these temperatures were both higher and lower than it is today (and the past 100 years).

 

[Doctorgori]

I am not trying to change anyone's views, simply stating what are accepted scientific facts. The same ones I teach my students each semester.

My views are not informed by the media, I did 16 hours of graduate work in climate dynamics, worked with a member of the IPCC and my MS Thesis was strongly grounded in climate modeling. My views are informed by science and the consensus of the scientific community and this is a topic with which I have spent a LOT of time .

That being said, I am also not going to 'argue' the point with someone who 'feels' or 'thinks' something about geologic history I am simply stating facts, they are free to accept or reject them.

“I am simply stating facts” is the issue, its a “Fact” per your point of view (which I agree with to a point),…
…. but go watch a congressional debate and you will see that “fact” becomes “opinion” very fast… you could in fact (clearly) cause the murder of numerous people and that “fact” in one person eyes is a nothing burger in another’s … “facts” or true/false have a weighted value …and thats the rub

Long term we simply have to stop burning fossil fuels, there is no way around that. We also must take steps to increase the rate at which CO2 is removed from the atmosphere.

News flash, and this just in; turns out cargo ship pollution (sulphur dioxide) seeds clouds which lowers surface temperatures. … go figure

…as for CO2 removal, there seems to be a current debate on just how much vegitation can or will remove CO2, some argue forest removal is a better approach…lots of room here for special interest and political biased solutions..

 

[Ordovician_Reef]

The second graph makes my point. There were periods where the Earth was both warmer and colder in the past 1 million years - both warmer and colder than it is today.

Spend some time and read the graph, look at the projected temps and time scale, what you are saying is simply wrong. Akin to saying the temp outside is 90 when the thermometer says it is 60.

As I said in an earlier post I am not interested in arguing with anyone, just presenting facts.

 

[Ordovician_Reef]

“I am simply stating facts” is the issue, its a “Fact” per your point of view (which I agree with to a point),…
…. but go watch a congressional debate and you will see that “fact” becomes “opinion” very fast… you could in fact (clearly) cause the murder of numerous people and that “fact” in one person eyes is a nothing burger in another’s … “facts” or true/false have a weighted value …and thats the rub

News flash, and this just in; turns out cargo ship pollution (sulphur dioxide) seeds clouds which lowers surface temperatures. … go figure

…as for CO2 removal, there seems to be a current debate on just how much vegitation can or will remove CO2, some argue forest removal is a better approach…lots of room here for special interest and political biased solutions..

I agree, there are very few natural CO2 sinks that will help on the short time scale, they simply do not operate that way.

 

[blaxsun]

Spend some time and read the graph, look at the projected temps, what you are saying is simply wrong. Akin to saying the temp outside is 90 when the thermometer says it is 60.

As I said in an earlier post I am not interested in arguing with anyone, just presenting facts.

The "projection" (which is basically a WAG) for 2050 is about the same temperature the Earth was around 100,000 years ago.

In the 1970s scientists were convinced we were headed into another ice age (I know because they taught this in school). Just saying...

 

[Doctorgori]

Assuming every single polar bear interbreeds, which is unlikely. Polar bears have been around for roughly a million years - during which time the Earth has been much warmer (and also much colder).

So how'd they survive during periods where it was much hotter (and no ice) and even much colder (where there may have only been ice and no ocean water)?

Polar bears are a (relatively) recent species anyway,,,,also supposedly they had time/room to move with climate/vegetation bands … I think this was proposed as to why wooly rhinos, et survived so many interglacials …
Lots of different variables here, with geography and continental shapes,ice corridors, et et having a lot to do with it…

 

[Ordovician_Reef]

The "projection" (which is basically a WAG) for 2050 is about the same temperature the Earth was around 100,000 years ago.

In the 1970s scientists were convinced we were headed into another ice age (I know because they taught this in school). Just saying...

I am done.

 

[Ordovician_Reef]

Polar bears are a (relatively) recent species anyway,,,,also supposedly they had time/room to move with climate/vegetation bands … I think this was proposed as to why wooly rhinos, et survived so many interglacials …
Lots of different variables here, with geography and continental shapes,ice corridors, et et having a lot to do with it…

My opinion is that they will not make another 200 years, the Polar bear is just such a special case because it is a carnivorous apex predator with a very specific feeding modality. Given the rapidity with which the sea ice is melting they will not have time to adapt. The last projections I saw put their extinction in the wild in the 100-200 year time frame.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Did either of you take pictures???

I was able to transfer a couple to my phone off the screen of my camera - hopefully you can see the rocks and last is a parrotfish:

 

[Doctorgori]

A fair question is:
…how much of what is environmentally important to us is news media sensationalism?
The last few red wolfs were illegally shot down to a few dozen examples in NC , the species is on the brink of extinction but that doesn’t even register as news…yet let some Panda have cubs, or a Florida croc eat a poodle; the news media is all over it….

 

[blaxsun]

A fair question is:
…how much of what is environmentally important to us is news media sensationalism?
The last few red wolfs were illegally shot down to a few dozen examples in NC , the species is on the brink of extinction but that doesn’t even register as news…yet let some Panda have cubs, or a Florida croc eat a poodle; the news media is all over it….

"Cute and cuddly" animals hog the limelight - even if natural selection should've made them extinct long ago (looking at you panda). Guaranteed if polar cubs didn't look so darned cute no one would care (or at least to the same extent).

Saving Florida gators... one poodle at a time, lol.

 

[Lasse]

Europe went green 20 years ago. How they looking over there? Freezing in the winter, frying in the summer and having to work until 105 before retirement...lol

You need to update your knowledge about Europe

More facts about the worlds average temperature between 90 degree S and 90 degree N around the world

Sincerely Lasse

 

[blaxsun]

I was able to transfer a couple to my phone off the screen of my camera - hopefully you can see the rocks and last is a parrotfish:

Somewhat, yes. I see the parrotfish don't seem to be suffering in the least...

 

[blaxsun]

Watch the entire video. It's eye-opening.

 

[Doctorgori]

"Cute and cuddly" animals hog the limelight - even if natural selection should've made them extinct long ago (looking at you panda). Guaranteed if polar cubs didn't look so darned cute no one would care (or at least to the same extent).

Saving Florida gators... one poodle at a time, lol.

Exactly, remember that picture of the white seal cub clubbing thing, case in point….
But to be fair the news being all over the dog incident might be because it was a Florida crocodile as opposed to a run-mill gator incident…

As for Europe….
But driving a fine point into it, some of the whole environmental news and public attitude is local/cultural…
I was watching that whole grizzly bear debate going on out west (I think on 60 minutes? can’t remember)

Anyway, I was taken aback when I looked up Europes human population vs brown bear population/distribution (its shocking!!! and worth looking up!!!)

my point is A LOT of the USA environmental/wildlife attitude is politically/culturally driven and perhaps NOT “exactly” fact/science based…You can almost divide what we believe in along political lines (or what media outlets we listen to) …unfortunately

 

[blaxsun]

Exactly, remember that picture of the white seal cub clubbing thing, case in point….
But to be fair the news being all over the dog incident might be because it was a Florida crocodile as opposed to a run-mill gator incident…

So was it a crocodile or a gator? (guessing if it was the former it was a pet release at some point in the past?)

The reality is that most of Florida is a swamp, and gators pretty much go with the territory (not really any different than the coyotes that snag the occasional small dog up here).