Is this Mandarin skinny?

[vetteguy53081]

In the case that a fish does feed off its liver, is it essentially moribund at that point?

It can become. The pic you doers posted suggest a skinny mandarin

 

[PharmrJohn]

This is indeed skinny. They need a large and constant supply of food such as pods and rotifiers. If not eating, will eventually feed off its liver

And there's the answer. And I think the term you are looking for is Gluconeogenesis! Basically the breakdown of fats and proteins into sugar. It could be the pic, but it looks skinny to me too. And I've seen these go for a lot less than a buck-15.

 

[litsoh]

What kind of telltale signs are there that a fish begins to feed off its liver other than a sunken stomach?

 

[PharmrJohn]

No real tell tale signs I know of. From what limited re-education I performed, you can actually get a fatty liver (Non-Alcoholic Fatty Liver Disease (NAFLD)) from prolonged GNG that ultimately leads to Fibrosis (BAD!). I'd look for weight loss in the entire system rather than just a part of it. I can see an issue with liver size, certainly, at end stage.

 

[Malum Argenteum]

I didn't say "no" fish, I said Mandarins as they need to eat every 10 or 15 seconds and you can't feed pellets or frozen like that constantly unless you have absolutely no life. Mandarins have a stomach like a seahorse and can't store much if any food so they need to eat constantly.

You said that "I would not give pellets or frozen food to a mandarin as that is not what they were built to eat." Since no fish were "built to eat" frozen or pellets, it follows that no fish should be given frozen or pellets (well, strictly that you wouldn't give any fish frozen or pellets, but no one is compelled to be consistent).

Having a small stomach doesn't entail that that frozen or pellets shouldn't be given, though it may follow that keeping them well fed solely on frozen or pellets would be difficult (which I don't think anyone would disagree with).


FWIW, I've seen mandarins gorge themselves on frozen to a degree that would put many other species to shame, so I'm not so sure about the small stomach hypothesis playing out in practice.

 

[Paul B]

Since no fish were "built to eat" frozen or pellets, it follows that no fish should be given frozen or pellets (well, strictly that you wouldn't give any fish frozen or pellets, but no one is compelled to be consistent).

I do believe pellets should not be fed to any fish. Frozen is different if frozen properly. But a mandarin. although will eat just about anything small enough will not live in any tank if not enough natural foods are available. I don't think you will find an old mandarin living in a tank with no natural food like pods. You can feed anything you like but they need to eat constantly. Mandarins live about 10 years. In my tank anyway but some people may keep them longer.

A mandarin may gorge itself on some food but it can't digest all that food and most of it will just be pushed out undigested as their intestinal tract is not designed for it. It's just a short tube and needs small amounts of food to go through it constantly.

But of course I am not the God of Mandarins nor am I part Mandarin. But if I see a pod, I may jump on it.

 

[litsoh]

Update: LFS sent me another video of the Mandarin actively picking at the rock and let me know that it fed on some fish eggs, so some super promising signs. It'll still be a long way to go to fully fatten him/her up but hopefully when I come by on Friday to pick em up it can fare better with the pods in my tank.

 

[trini2debone]

She is very skinny and obviousely dying of starvation. I would not give pellets or frozen food to a mandarin as that is not what they were built to eat. They need pods and plenty of them, something that bare tank is severly lacking.

As for the price. $115.00 for a half dead mandarin is robbery. They sell here on Long Island for about $25.00. I have a breeding pair and have been keeping them for decades.

Would you give frozen food to any other fish in your aquarium?

 

[Paul B]

All my fish get frozen food besides live worms. I don't need to feed mandarins because they are a fish that you can't feed long term and need living pods and a lot of them to stay healthy. An older tank that is not to clean will supply enough pods for them.

 

[trini2debone]

All my fish get frozen food besides live worms. I don't need to feed mandarins because they are a fish that you can't feed long term and need living pods and a lot of them to stay healthy. An older tank that is not to clean will supply enough pods for them.

Are mandarin not fish? You are making these statements as a matter of fact... Sorry to say but you are wrong, it's also not the answer to the question asked. Mandarins can live long healthy lives on frozen food that meet their dietry requirements. To answer the question: Yes based on the picture that fish is really skinny and might not be around for long, at that price it is very risky.

 

[Imrahilwjz]

Are mandarin not fish? You are making these statements as a matter of fact... Sorry to say but you are wrong, it's also not the answer to the question asked. Mandarins can live long healthy lives on frozen food that meet their dietry requirements. To answer the question: Yes based on the picture that fish is really skinny and might not be around for long, at that price it is very risky.

Paul has many ...like many many posts on this forum and other forums. He has a tank that is decades old. He wrote a book about marine fish keeping. He served his country in Vietnam. I think he deserves respect. His statements are based on his experience, but I have seen him reference research studies to devastating effect when challenged.

 

[LiamPM]

For reference this would be the tank it would be going in. 6’ 125 gallons and plenty of pods visible.

If the price isnt an issue then yes, without a doubt you should get it. Your tank is tenfold more likely to give it its feeding requirements naturally then the tank its currently in. Most of the similar questions asked are debatable because they are usually people asking in terms of tiny tanks or similar that rarely sustain this fish. Yours is a 6 foot tank that will naturally have a level of copepods that would likely be more than enough for 1 Mandarin without even thinking about it.

If it feeds directly on frozen or pellet etc then its a bonus.

Should you QT? That depends, did you QT your existing fish. If you did, then yes. If you didnt then id honestly try to QT for observation only or not at all.

Bottom line for me is that it is skinny, likely malnourished and will benefit from being in your tank quicker than it will staying in the stores any longer.

 

[trini2debone]

Paul has many ...like many many posts on this forum and other forums. He has a tank that is decades old. He wrote a book about marine fish keeping. He served his country in Vietnam. I think he deserves respect. His statements are based on his experience, but I have seen him reference research studies to devastating effect when challenged.

Old doesn't mean right, this is how incorrect hypothesis become "fact". No fish was meant to eat frozen human prepared food, but we're feeding them frozen food. With success, not so? Why is that? Simple; we figured out their dietary requirements and meet said requirements. Unless Mandarin are not fish? It's about time we add this myth to the "this is how to got by, but now we know better" pile. Remember when people swore by brine shrimp, or reefs do well at 7.8 pH? Saying someone is wrong isn't disrepect, knowing they're wrong and leaving them in a state of not knowing is the highest level of disrespect...

 

[Court_Appointed_Hypeman]

Dang, yeah maybe I can try and save it. Only thing that makes me a little hesitant is the $115 price tag, I’ll see how it is in a couple days

That's pretty expensive

I think the biota captive bred ones I see in the chicago area lfs are usually $80, but they are also super tiny.

I got a wild caught male for $18 and it's been doing great for a couple years now. But not sure it eats any pellets.

 

[Paul B]

No fish was meant to eat frozen human prepared food, but we're feeding them frozen food. With success, not so?

This is true. But a mandarin, like a seahorse is not a normal, run of the mill fish. A mandarin does not have a real stomach and was designed to eat a small meaty food every few seconds. This one was in my tank for 10 years as was his mate. He was killed by accident but I never fed either of them and they constantly spawn.

If you believe you can feed one on fish eggs or dry pellets long term, show a picture of one. 5 or 6 years is not an old mandarin as I believe they live about 12 or 15 years. I have a mated pair now and I have always had a mated pair since they were initially imported.



Healthy mandarins like almost all fish constantly spawn like these 8-year-olds are doing.



I hope yours lives for ever. Have a great day.

 

[Northern Flicker]

Dang, yeah maybe I can try and save it. Only thing that makes me a little hesitant is the $115 price tag, I’ll see how it is in a couple days

You should ask for a discount!

 

[Northern Flicker]

This is true. But a mandarin, like a seahorse is not a normal, run of the mill fish. A mandarin does not have a real stomach and was designed to eat a small meaty food every few seconds. This one was in my tank for 10 years as was his mate. He was killed by accident but I never fed either of them and they constantly spawn.

If you believe you can feed one on fish eggs or dry pellets long term, show a picture of one. 5 or 6 years is not an old mandarin as I believe they live about 12 or 15 years. I have a mated pair now and I have always had a mated pair since they were initially imported.



Healthy mandarins like almost all fish constantly spawn like these 8-year-olds are doing.



I hope yours lives for ever. Have a great day.

I've always loved pics of your pair Paul!

 

[Imrahilwjz]

Old doesn't mean right, this is how incorrect hypothesis become "fact". No fish was meant to eat frozen human prepared food, but we're feeding them frozen food. With success, not so? Why is that? Simple; we figured out their dietary requirements and meet said requirements. Unless Mandarin are not fish? It's about time we add this myth to the "this is how to got by, but now we know better" pile. Remember when people swore by brine shrimp, or reefs do well at 7.8 pH? Saying someone is wrong isn't disrepect, knowing they're wrong and leaving them in a state of not knowing is the highest level of disrespect...

I have no difficulty with folks stating their belief about fish care. However, in the same sense you don't have to accept Paul's statements about fish husbandry, others don't have to accept what you say. I find your responses excessively sarcastic which is why I spoke about respect. I will admit that Paul can come across as blunt as well though, particularly if you are unfamiliar with his style of posting. He does often offer advice to folks on the forums and has given me helpful advice. That being said I have observed that a lot of experienced fish keepers recommend a live diet (pods, BBS, etc) for mandarins. Thank you for your consideration.

 

[Paul B]

I love these guys.




And her.





From Wikipedia

Diet​

[edit]
Based on the gut analyses of seven wild fish Sadovy et al. (2001) determined that the mandarinfish has a mixed diet that consists of harpacticoid copepods, polychaete worms, small gastropods, gammaridean amphipods, fish eggs and ostracods. In the wild, feeding is continuous during daytime; the fish peck selectively at small prey trapped on coral substrate in a home range of many square meters.[10]

Mandarin dragonet facts​

Here are a few facts about the Mandarin dragonet that might interest you:

1. The Mandarin dragonet can live a long fruitful life in the wild, but its lifespan tends to drop in captivity. While wild Mandarins live an average of 10 to 15 years, their captive counterparts only tend to stay around for two to four years.

 

[trini2debone]

This is true. But a mandarin, like a seahorse is not a normal, run of the mill fish. A mandarin does not have a real stomach and was designed to eat a small meaty food every few seconds. This one was in my tank for 10 years as was his mate. He was killed by accident but I never fed either of them and they constantly spawn.

If you believe you can feed one on fish eggs or dry pellets long term, show a picture of one. 5 or 6 years is not an old mandarin as I believe they live about 12 or 15 years. I have a mated pair now and I have always had a mated pair since they were initially imported.



Healthy mandarins like almost all fish constantly spawn like these 8-year-olds are doing.



I hope yours lives for ever. Have a great day.

Firstly, sorry for your lost . Secondly, you are stating anecdotal evidence as "fact". Lastly, Wiki can be editing by anyone it is not peer reviewed. Thanks have a great one as well.