Not all Cycling Bacteria are created equal. Who's who, and what do they need?
- Thread starter taricha
- Start date
- Tagged users None
it has been shown by @Dr. Reef that addition of a small amount of PO4 is required for some of the bacterial products to work. I.e. stability is not designed to do what you're asking it to do, it is for add fish and bacteria for (I think) 7 days. I have used stability many many times with no problems whatsoever with ammonia. So - I don't think it's prudent to say 'it doesn't work'.
Second - Its unclear whether Aquabiomics can detect bacterial spore DNA as well as growing/whole bacteria. The way to tell whether bacteria are in it or not is to culture it out - and perhaps then send a sample. But I don't think you can say Aquabiomics is 'wrong'.
Edit - sorry if some of this was already said - my browser did not show other posts except my last one.
twentyleagues
2500 Club Member
I dont know if this will add anything as its not very scientific. I have recently cycled a tank using mb start xlm. It was a slow start so after 2 weeks of nothing I add the rest of the bottle. ammonia started to go down 2 days later. Then I was registering nitrite of 4-5ppm (I know new cycle science blah blah blah put fish in) for over a week no movement. I read multiple places organic carbon will help cycle, po4 helps cycle, I've got reefroids! I add 1/4 tsp of reefroids and 2 days later I was at 2ppm. I waited 2 days and tested again same 2ppm added another1/4tsp. 2 more days just shy of 0ppm. Coincidence possibly like I said not really scientific. 120g water volume.
Lasse
10K Club member
Thank you @taricha
I´ll think you just have confirm things that I have said a long time with one exception - I have often said that there is no difference between nitrification population in fresh and salt water. Even if I´m not totally convinced about different autotrophs - your investigation have shown that it can be that way.
I think also that you have shown - in a very elegant way the risk for blocking the second part of the nitrification cycle - NO2 to NO3. The interesting things is that biospira, FritZ turbo, the different living substrates and the living rock - all succeeded to do the full nitrification cycle in around 3 weeks but other - fast NH4 oxidizers but the second part - NO2 to NO3 was blocked.
The thing I would suggest to do in this case is to take one Hanna phosphate checker and check for low amount of PO4 in Biospira, Fritz turbo, the different substrates and from the living rock. This can confirm or exclude the importance of phosphorus for the growth of nitrospira and nitrobacter - the two known main groups of NOB. For all the samples where the oxidation of NH4 worked, this does not necessarily mean that AOB were involved - in salt water it is known that AOA is often responsible for the ammonium oxidation (NOB
= Nitrite Oxidising Bacteria, AOB = Ammonia Oxidising Bacteria and AOA
= Ammonia Oxidising Archaea)
Another thing that can explain the blocking is oxygen concentration. NOB are known for higher oxygen demand than AOB and AOA.
With blocking process 2 I mean that the nitrite oxidation does not start after total NH4 oxidation
With stepless I mean continuous process of both AO and NO With in steps I mean that it is clear steps between the processes
Run 1
Note - biospira more or less stepless between the two processes. Nat ocean sand clear steps. Both complete after 20 days
Run 2 48 days
Clear steps and complete in 20 days for CaribSea sand and step and blocking process 2 for MB start. One and only - when it started (late) NH4 oxidation (around day 20) rather stepless but blocking process 2
Run 3
Fritz turbo stepless and Caribsea with steps
Run 4
Fritz turbo stepless and complete after 32 days, Petco rock with steps but complete after 21 days. Start smart, Fluval and One and Only steples when AO started but blocking of process 2
If I can suggest a run number 5 - I would take the preparations where the 2nd step was blocked and redo the test but having very little PO4 in the test tubes
Once again - an impressive work and we can take away the "" from living sand
Excuse me for a long post but I was late to one of my favorite parties
Sincerely Lasse
I´ll think you just have confirm things that I have said a long time with one exception - I have often said that there is no difference between nitrification population in fresh and salt water. Even if I´m not totally convinced about different autotrophs - your investigation have shown that it can be that way.
I think also that you have shown - in a very elegant way the risk for blocking the second part of the nitrification cycle - NO2 to NO3. The interesting things is that biospira, FritZ turbo, the different living substrates and the living rock - all succeeded to do the full nitrification cycle in around 3 weeks but other - fast NH4 oxidizers but the second part - NO2 to NO3 was blocked.
The thing I would suggest to do in this case is to take one Hanna phosphate checker and check for low amount of PO4 in Biospira, Fritz turbo, the different substrates and from the living rock. This can confirm or exclude the importance of phosphorus for the growth of nitrospira and nitrobacter - the two known main groups of NOB. For all the samples where the oxidation of NH4 worked, this does not necessarily mean that AOB were involved - in salt water it is known that AOA is often responsible for the ammonium oxidation (NOB
= Nitrite Oxidising Bacteria, AOB = Ammonia Oxidising Bacteria and AOA
= Ammonia Oxidising Archaea)
Another thing that can explain the blocking is oxygen concentration. NOB are known for higher oxygen demand than AOB and AOA.
With blocking process 2 I mean that the nitrite oxidation does not start after total NH4 oxidation
With stepless I mean continuous process of both AO and NO With in steps I mean that it is clear steps between the processes
Run 1
Note - biospira more or less stepless between the two processes. Nat ocean sand clear steps. Both complete after 20 days
Run 2 48 days
Clear steps and complete in 20 days for CaribSea sand and step and blocking process 2 for MB start. One and only - when it started (late) NH4 oxidation (around day 20) rather stepless but blocking process 2
Run 3
Fritz turbo stepless and Caribsea with steps
Run 4
Fritz turbo stepless and complete after 32 days, Petco rock with steps but complete after 21 days. Start smart, Fluval and One and Only steples when AO started but blocking of process 2
If I can suggest a run number 5 - I would take the preparations where the 2nd step was blocked and redo the test but having very little PO4 in the test tubes
Once again - an impressive work and we can take away the "" from living sand
Excuse me for a long post but I was late to one of my favorite parties
Sincerely Lasse
Dr. Reef
www.drreefsquarantinedfish.com
I am not sure about testing but in my opinion 2 different strands will try to out compete the other and stronger will take over. This might slow down the process of instant cycle by how much i am not sure. As most of thier energy will be exhusted towards competing rather than establishing.
I throw in an many sources as possible. No idea if it's quicker, I never thought there was a time contraint to be honest, lol.
Please excuse my ignorance as I'm an Engineer not a biologist. My interest is only in establishing the best biodiversity. My assumption is that brand A would contain 123 species and brand B would contain 789 species.
Sorry if this is a dumb idea
Sorry if this is a dumb idea
Just my opinion - first - there is no good definition for what biodiversity is 'best' - Second - as @Dr. Reef stated, there is a lot of evidence that reef tank biodiversity decreases with time (even as the tank is growing more corals, etc) and adding multiple products probably results in only a few actually remaining in the tank long-term. It was a good question - not ignorant. IMHO biodiversity in this setting is a bit of a buzz word - meaning it sells products. In reality (I think) - each tank will establish its own biome based on the conditions at the time.
OP
OP
- Joined
- May 22, 2016
- Messages
- 7,109
- Reaction score
- 10,945
That part of the experiment got put on hold. It got cold here and my space dropped below reasonable temperature for hobby bacterial testing. Spring is around the corner - will pick back up soon.
Antaguana
Active Member
You should come to Perth Australia. 35+ C here just how bacteria like itThat part of the experiment got put on hold. It got cold here and my space dropped below reasonable temperature for hobby bacterial testing. Spring is around the corner - will pick back up soon.
@taricha or anyone
What happened to biospira? It’s vanished from the market over the last year. It’s on their website but every vendor has been sold out and has it listed as discontinued or not carried anymore. This was always my go to product and I still have two bottles I managed to buy a few months ago, I haven’t seen any for sale since. I’ve emailed the company asking about it but never got a reply
What happened to biospira? It’s vanished from the market over the last year. It’s on their website but every vendor has been sold out and has it listed as discontinued or not carried anymore. This was always my go to product and I still have two bottles I managed to buy a few months ago, I haven’t seen any for sale since. I’ve emailed the company asking about it but never got a reply
OP
OP
- Joined
- May 22, 2016
- Messages
- 7,109
- Reaction score
- 10,945
Let's say it's still on my list, but my list can get long and no guarantees it'll ever get back to the top of the list - maybe in the spring? I had a silly idea that I'd be able to do it at the same time as a current project - but that was nuts.
6 months ago...
Sent an email to instant ocean customer service about Bio-Spira being discontinued.
"Thank you for contacting us today. That product was discontinued some time ago due to a lack of sales, most likely. Tetra Safestart Plus is the same product, and can also be used in saltwater tanks."
I find that wild and implausible that the best SW cycling bottle bac is now Tetra Safestart Plus which makes no mention of saltwater.
It turns out it's not nearly as rapid as biospira, but Tetra Safestart is serviceable as a saltwater cycling product even though it's clearly intended for freshwater.
What to make of the fact that Amazon and walmart are now selling biospira again? no idea. A few badly expired bottles? Is the old awesome biospira back? or did they literally put some Tetra Safestart Plus in Purple biospira bottles?
I totally understand, I appreciate all the hard work you put into the initial tests to help us gain a better understanding of how these work with just ammonia present. This is pretty cool data
no clue - the thread has been taken away from the initial post - so that 2 other posters can add their research to it. It's widely known that nitrifying bacteria can go dormant for months. No offense to the OP - it extended that time - I'm not sure why Taricha and Dan P are reporting their results here on this thread - which kind of hijacks the OP.
Similar threads
