What will happen to the Great Barrier Reef?

[LARedstickreefer]

I'm saying that our impact on the planet is not solely based upon how many of us there are, but also how many resources every one of us consumes. A lot of this is related to wealth, though in general humans are just pretty wasteful creatures - the average American, for example, throws away around 30%-40% of their food without having eaten it. So a lot could be done by just being smarter with consumption of things.

Still, we literally do not have enough resources globally for every person on Earth to be even middle class. It would take the resources of four earths to bring everyone up to U.S. consumption levels, for example. So at some point we'll have to decide what is a reasonable global standard of consumption and not exceed it.

Who would get to decide what reasonable consumption is? This will never ever work; it goes against nature.

I drive a Porsche and eat steaks because I worked my ever loving caboose off to be able to. Take that away and what motivation do I have to remain in my current role?

You can’t tell people what is enough for them. The solution to any problem is the one that can actually be done.

I don’t have kids, but if I were, it would be when I could provide a decent like for them. Living in poverty wouldn’t be a decent life. Maybe the world’s impoverished ought to re-think their decision to have kids rather than everyone just needing to go vegan and walk everywhere.

 

[S2G]

Who would get to decide what reasonable consumption is? This will never ever work; it goes against nature.

I drive a Porsche and eat steaks because I worked my ever loving caboose off to be able to. Take that away and what motivation do I have to remain in my current role?

You can’t tell people what is enough for them. The solution to any problem is the one that can actually be done.

I don’t have kids, but if I were, it would be when I could provide a decent like for them. Living in poverty wouldn’t be a decent life. Maybe the world’s impoverished ought to re-think their decision to have kids rather than everyone just needing to go vegan and walk everywhere.

Yeah I'd really like to find a solution that doesn't involve me having to go back to living in the meth ridden ghetto i worked hard to get out of.

People need to quit thinking in terms of how something will work but how will it fail.

 

[eschaton]

Who would get to decide what reasonable consumption is? This will never ever work; it goes against nature.

I drive a Porsche and eat steaks because I worked my ever loving caboose off to be able to. Take that away and what motivation do I have to remain in my current role?

You can’t tell people what is enough for them. The solution to any problem is the one that can actually be done.

I don’t have kids, but if I were, it would be when I could provide a decent like for them. Living in poverty wouldn’t be a decent life. Maybe the world’s impoverished ought to re-think their decision to have kids rather than everyone just needing to go vegan and walk everywhere.

This is why the tragedy of the commons exists. Everyone acts in their own rational self interest. However this results in the shared public resources (such as the natural environment) becoming depleted and/or polluted.

Again, the number of kids per household is dropping rapidly. There's only a handful of countries outside of Africa where the average family has more than three kids, and relatively few left who have more than two.

Plus you don't want to have the total fertility rate drop too far. In some countries in Europe and East Asia it's down to 1.1 children per family now, meaning each generation is half again as big as the previous one. Absent massive immigration, this means you're going to eventually end up with a really bad ratio of elderly to working-age adults, necessitating very high taxes to pay for pensions and the like.

I'm not saying that economic growth control is a feasible idea mind you. I'm just saying that controlling for population growth won't do much, because within the next two generations global population will be declining everywhere outside of Africa anyway.

 

[LARedstickreefer]

Yeah I'd really like to find a solution that doesn't involve me having to go back to living in the meth ridden ghetto i worked hard to get out of.

People need to quit thinking in terms of how something will work but how will it fail.

Word!

If you tell people that their lifestyle can only go so far, what reason do they have to get that 6 figure salary? There’s no way I would do my current job if all I can attain is a little Smart car and have beans and rice for dinner in a small apartment. What happens when the world NEEDS the doctors and engineers but no one wants to take on that level of responsibility?

People just need to be educated about where their plastic bottles wind up when there isn’t a recycling service around. I used to recycle like it was Canon law...I moved to a city that doesn’t offer recycling so I adjust what I buy and trash, ON MY OWN. I don’t buy bottled water anymore; I use my RO water for drinking now.

 

[LARedstickreefer]

This is why the tragedy of the commons exists. Everyone acts in their own rational self interest. However this results in the shared public resources (such as the natural environment) becoming depleted polluted.

Again, the number of kids per household is dropping rapidly. There's only a handful of countries outside of Africa where the average family has more than three kids, and relatively few left who have more than two.

Plus you don't want to have the total fertility rate drop too far. In some countries in Europe and East Asia it's down to 1.1 children per family now, meaning each generation is half again as big as the previous one. Absent massive immigration, this means you're going to eventually end up with a really bad ratio of elderly to working-age adults, necessitating very high taxes to pay for pensions and the like.

I'm not saying that economic growth control is a feasible idea mind you. I'm just saying that controlling for population growth won't do much, because within the next two generations global population will be declining everywhere outside of Africa anyway.

Or you just tell young people to either save for retirement, or die. Simple as that really. I could be having a lot more fun with my retirement savings if I didn’t have to worry about retirement. I’d be completely debt free right now and my tank would be full if HW and Jawdroppers.

Poor choices are a fact of life, but it’s not my responsibility to bail someone out of their own poor choices. The animal kingdom sure doesn't!

Don’t have kids if you don’t make enough to support your lifestyle AND save adequately for retirement.

 

[daftwazzock]

The real culprit is industry and those who own the means of production and always has been.

A single factory in Holland, the Tata Steel Mill, produces more greenhouse gases than the entire population of the Netherlands.

Yet the problem is individual consumption? No.

Who installed the pipes that spew sewage into the ocean from Florida? Was it you or I? No.



Yes this is 'treated' sewage, but it is still chock full of reef-killing nutrients (well, algae-bloom causing nutrients to be precise). It's no coincidence the reefs around Florida are almost gone.

 

[ca1ore]

I think it is really sad that the reefs are struggling, but I believe that humans do not have as much of an impact as one may think. I believe that the earth is going through a natural cycle, and coming out of a miniature ice age (considering the fact that we still have ice it counts). The planet is constantly changing and life will adapt to the change.

It is true that the Earth has gone through many climate cycles - some hot, some cold. But they don't just happen, something has to cause them. Whether an uptick in volcanic activity, large meteor/comet strike, solar system moving through a celestial dust cloud, etc. While it may be convenient to look elsewhere, or imagine some benign form of cyclicity, it's hard to not conclude that the problem is US (fossil fuels are a form of geological storage for carbon; in less than 100 years we have released, what, a billion years worth of stored carbon. Ruh-Roh Raggy). The planet will adapt, it has recovered from far worse, but it may well do so without the aformentionned US.

 

[LARedstickreefer]

The real culprit is industry and those who own the means of production and always has been.

A single factory in Holland, the Tata Steel Mill, produces more greenhouse gases than the entire population of the Netherlands.

Yet the problem is individual consumption? No.

Who installed the pipes that spew sewage into the ocean from Florida? Was it you or I? No.

They will only produce what the market is asking them too. Market is tied to human need/wants which isn’t going to be controlled by any government without a massive war

This is why we need to just accept that more humans = more heat/waste and try to find ways make processes more efficient and ways to trap carbon before it gets into the atmosphere and deal with trash.

 

[daftwazzock]

They will only produce what the market is asking them too. Market is tied to human need/wants which isn’t going to be controlled by any government without a massive war

This is why we need to just accept that more humans = more heat and try to find ways make processes more efficient and ways to trap carbon before it gets into the atmosphere.

The market is easily controlled through a thing called laws and regulations. We still have them in Europe, to some extent, although it's still bypassable by corporations like Tata when they poisoned the residents of Ijmuiden and obfuscate the facts with lies and propaganda.

Did 'the market' ask the poorly regulated wastewater treatment companies in Florida to dump their sewage offshore? Or was it some executives looking for the cheapest legal option?

 

[LARedstickreefer]

The market is easily controlled through a thing called laws and regulations. We still have them in Europe, to some extent, although it's still bypassable by corporations like Tata when they poisoned the residents of Ijmuiden and obfuscate the facts with lies and propaganda.

Did 'the market' ask the poorly regulated wastewater treatment companies in Florida to dump their sewage offshore? Or was it some executives looking for the cheapest legal option?

You went from a company releasing greenhouse gases to companies polluting the environment?

I didn’t argue in favor of pollution outside of greenhouse gases.

 

[daftwazzock]

You went from a company releasing greenhouse gases to companies polluting the environment?

I didn’t argue in favor of pollution outside of greenhouse gases.

They are one and the same. Tata has been lying about its Co2 emissions and is being sued by the residents of Ijmuiden for that (Tata's operation is causing the Netherlands to violate its treaty agreement) and for health problems suffered by the residents since they lie downwind of the factory.

The petroleum companies have successfully utilized propaganda to cast doubt on climate science with just enough people to prevent any kind of progress from happening, thus protecting their profits. Those same companies knew that their operations would lead us down the road as early as the 1980s

Anyways, there's not much of a point in discussing this further because for those who don't "believe", it's a matter on the level of faith and religion.

 

[LARedstickreefer]

They are one and the same. Tata has been lying about its Co2 emissions and is being sued by the residents of Ijmuiden for that (Tata's operation is causing the Netherlands to violate its treaty agreement) and for health problems suffered by the residents since they lie downwind of the factory.

Ok, now you are arguing that they are braking laws, which is another issue entirely.

My argument was that they aren’t going to produce more product than the market calls for.

 

[Thales]

Good morning everyone . I was watching the news last night and saw what was happening in Australia.(My heart and prayers go to everyone affected in this disaster). On the news they said temps are rising and I was thinking that if the temp on land is rising , what is going on in the ocean, what damage is happening on the reef. Just curious how this will affect the hobby and now more than ever we as a community must take the necessary steps to preserve the reef

The rising temps are a large part of what is causing the fires and the die off on the GBR. Reefs worldwide are in real trouble due to climate change, as well as local impacts, this is not up for debate. It is too early in the summer on the GBR, so we will have to see how this year impacts the reefs over the next few months.

I think it is really sad that the reefs are struggling, but I believe that humans do not have as much of an impact as one may think. I believe that the earth is going through a natural cycle, and coming out of a miniature ice age (considering the fact that we still have ice it counts). The planet is constantly changing and life will adapt to the change.

Yes, life will adapt - the same way it did after the comet hit, but that doesn't say much for us. The evidence that human activity is the major cause of the current climate issues is overwhelming.

They will only produce what the market is asking them too. Market is tied to human need/wants which isn’t going to be controlled by any government without a massive war

I don't think that is how the market works anymore. People buy what is offered in most cases, they don't demand much anymore from producers. The market produces what is 'good' for the market.

 

[sde1500]

My argument was that they aren’t going to produce more product than the market calls for.

Yes and no. They produce what they produce. Due to it really being a negative externality, it isn't considered much. Which is why there is regulations. The "market" will never say "I'll only buy this shirt if it takes less than X lbs of CO2 emissions to make". Regulations step in and set those targets.

 

[Thales]

Ain't buying the rising temperature on Global Warming is CAUSED BY HUMANS.

One volcanic eruption/explosion causes more damage than yeeeeears of human environmental factors.

MOTHER EARTH has been evolving and changing for......drum rooooooooll..... 4.5 billion years.

when our dead bones turn to fine sand,.... Mother Earth will still be evolving and changing, creating beautiful landscape and REEFS and yet hellish destruction all at the same time all over the Planet

Who's to say in 3 million years the deserts of Africa aren't a might rainforest while the Amazon is overrun with an Ice Age?

100,000 yrs ago Ohio had an Ice Glacier pushing rock and soil that eventually formed the Ohio River and the rolling hills of Kentucky .

Yet 100,000 yrs later in current times Ohio is now growing more Corn and Soybeans than we know what to do with

Our lives on Earth is such a nanosecond blink on an Earthly scale

Mother Earth will be just fine when our decayed flesh and fine sand bones will be the composition of soil when we're 6ft under a millenial from now.

The evidence is overwhelming that the climate change we are seeing now is human activity driven. There is more solid, robust, retested evidence from the last 100 years that supports this idea then there is for 6/6/6/6 lighting schedules or vibrant use.

 

[theMeat]

The oceans have slightly warmed over the last century. Whether or not ppl had anything to do with that is far from proven and only speculation based on correlation at this point.

 

[sde1500]

far from proven and only speculation based on correlation at this point

Basically all the data shows otherwise, but I welcome you to provide information backing up this claim.

 

[Thales]

The oceans have slightly warmed over the last century. Whether or not ppl had anything to do with that is far from proven and only speculation based on correlation at this point.

This is factually incorrect.

 

[theMeat]

Basically all the data shows otherwise, but I welcome you to provide information backing up this claim.

This is a topic I am passionate about. Will be glad to offer up so much info you will beg me to stop. Will have to wait till later when I have more time. Let me start out by saying I’m a bleeding heart liberal and hope you can keep an open mind

 

[theMeat]

This is factually incorrect.

Are you aware of Milankovitch cycle, solar cycles, or 800 year lag?
Did you know we are still technically in an ice age?