All zoa tank what lights to use???

[A. grandis]

OK, back at this one last time....... Being relatively new to this Forum here most of you don't know that I've been in and around the Lighting Industry for over 20 years and can talk PAR, PUR, Lux, Lumens, CRI with the best of them and by no means would ever say that you cannot grow Apples to Zoanthids under Metal Halide or T5 Fluorescent lamps. Just trying to state facts on and voicing my opinion, knowledge and experience on the down-played LED's

This thread was/is suppose to be about which lights are best for Zoanthids to thrive under..... right ?

So lets start over and make a list of best options we have personally used (ie; spectrum, Kelvin, bulb layout etc...) in each of the three debated categories above. Once we get some census on a few in which majority agree with I'll edit the very first post to show our combined analysis on best two or three within each category..... agreed

Metal Halide:

T5 Fluorescent:

LED:



Cheers, Todd

Perhaps this would be a good way to start over? I'll contribute...

Best light for me was when I was using two Ushios 250W, 6.500K metal halides with 2 NO actinic tubes over a 55 gal tank, long ago. I keep zoas since 1995.
T5s are better to manage and more uniform. Saves some money with less electricity and still do a wonderful job. I have ATI Power Modules today and zoas are doing wonderful!!! But the best I've seen healthy/reproduction wise was definitely with MHs.

Grandis.

 

[trido]

Again, spectrum and PAR isn't all about lighting. That's what the LED companies are trying to push because of the literature. Business is business. If that's what aquarists talk about and see on articles, that's what they will sell.
People never talk about some of the important issues regarding reef keeping (not only light!!) because they just go with the flow and keep studying on the internet alone.

That's where YOU are wrong and again stating your opinions as fact. Our lighting is about spectrum, PAR and PUR. Are you going to deny and refute all of the studies done and articals written by scientists and reefers like Sanjay? The LED companies aren't pushing this information. We were using it with MH's, VHO's and T-5's. Most of us who have been around for most of a decade know that an IWASAKI 6500K bulb will give us great growth but without the blue spectrum your corals will be all browned out. The MH Bulb companies worked very hard to change the spectrum from yellow to blue and we ended up with 10K, 12K, 14K, and 20K bulbs. The Higher the number, the bluer the bulb, the less PAR, less growth. This has nothing to do with LED companies. T-5 companies also have varying kelvins of bulbs. LED companies are only following suit. I've ran a lot of MH bulbs and have had some amazing SPS tanks. For two years now, I've been running LED's and my tank is well on its way to once again being amazing. If I adjust my lighting to a more 10K spectrum I will get much faster growth but I'm not in a hurry to grow coral like in nature. I would rather that they look prettier all the time.

I think this is really the first time I bring the subject here in this forum, but I wouldn't imagine that it would cause such impact. So simple to understand, but you guys really love your LEDs. Just cool off, please, like your LEDs. LOL!!
If you didn't get it by now, it won't make any difference trying to explain any further. Let every one analyze and do their search. I believe that people are capable to choose for themselves. I'm not trying to impose anything here nor to prove my point. Not at all.
Again, it's just my point of view and you may agree or not. I don't really care, really. LOL!! I still respect all of your opinions and read them.

I can see that this is the first time you posted about this. The reason so many reefers are up in arms and HOT is that you talk about "heat" which is nothing more than your term for something we cant figure out, and claim its simple to wrap your mind around and we are obviously ignorant. NOT your words exactly but IMO implied. One thing that might give you some credibility, that I cannot seem to find anywhere in any of your threads or posts, is some pictures of your amazing growth and color from your fish tank.

 

[Wildexpressions]

You all would understand more about the "heat issue" (meaning heat from natural sunlight and trying to resemble the same at home) and the importance of natural sunlight for corals and zoas if you just spend some time underwater in the tropicals. LOL!! Common sense, my friends.

Grandis.

If you are right and zoa's required significant infrared energy to thrive then it is just common sense to stop talking and prove it .... isn't it?

So seeing as you apparently cannot let this go, rather then posting these passive aggressive novelette's, perhaps you might show some faith in our collective intelligence. Simply post a short message with a couple of links directing us to any reputable scientific sources that support your perception.

Thanks

Steve

 

[A. grandis]

Do your own test and prove to yourself.
Go to the beach and see for yourself.


Grandis.

 

[Jlobes]

Thanks for letting me express myself.

I'm very, very sorry, but I really don't have time for this. Not to be rude.
I was just trying to help. I'm sorry for any inconvenience!


Grandis.

or perhaps, you do.

I understand your desire to educate us all. on the "natural" environment of zoas, there in HI where you can experience them in the wild. But, that is not the topic at hand or the issue. LEDs have come a long, long way in just a few years. Are they perfect? no, probably not, but neither are MH or T5. Each has their own set of pros and cons, which we as aquarists all take into consideration when making educated purchases for our tanks and living inhabitants. Many people are successful with all sorts of techniques, some that seem contrary to the poplar opinion.

 

[trido]

Do your own test and prove to yourself.
Go to the beach and see for yourself.


Grandis.

A lot of us have been to tropical reefs and have seen them in nature. We are talking about fish tanks and the lighting we use to make our corals grow. Obviously, you are the one who doesn't understand. Most of us in our hobby use facts from scientific studies. On another Note, for anyone interested. Sanjay Joshi, who has written many articals regarding lighting, and who has tested almost every MH bulb created for our wonderful hobby. If your interested in learning some science A. grandis Here is a link Sanjay has recently switched his 500G personal tank over to Radion LED's.

 

[A. grandis]

Well... It's going to be great if you can use this thread for your homework and prove that I am wrong. Use your own precious time.
You can also do a practical work with MHs, T5s and LEDs to compare and prove that I am wrong, please.

Dr. Sanjay would never say that any of the LEDs today are better than T5s and MHs. That wouldn't be accurate, I guess.
Last time I've heard he was having a hard time keeping some species of photosynthetic corals alive under LEDs. I would think the test was done with the "BEST" LEDs on the market.

I don't need to prove nothing. I don't get paid for that. I'm sorry.
Go do your homework and prove that I'm wrong. But do the practical comparison as well and tell me that LEDs are actually BETTER than MHs and/or T5.

Simple as that.

Now, if you excuse me, I have to make some money to pay my bills. :tongue:
Have a nice weekend all!!
God bless.
Grandis.

 

[turbo21]

Well... It's going to be great if you can use this thread for your homework and prove that I am wrong. Use your own precious time.
You can also do a practical work with MHs, T5s and LEDs to compare and prove that I am wrong, please.

Dr. Sanjay would never say that any of the LEDs today are better than T5s and MHs. That wouldn't be accurate, I guess.
Last time I've heard he was having a hard time keeping some species of photosynthetic corals alive under LEDs. I would think the test was done with the "BEST" LEDs on the market.

I don't need to prove nothing. I don't get paid for that. I'm sorry.
Go do your homework and prove that I'm wrong. But do the practical comparison as well and tell me that LEDs are actually BETTER than MHs and/or T5.

Simple as that.

Now, if you excuse me, I have to make some money to pay my bills. :tongue:
Have a nice weekend all!!
God bless.
Grandis.

Sorry but if you would actually open your mind and read a lot of the posts in this thread the homework has been done and has proven LEDs are better

Can you they grow coral as well? Yes

Coloration of zoas? No difference

Cost - Same to buy cheaper to run

Heat emission? Less. Getting rid of the need for chillers

Now this is a comparison only for zoanthids because this is the question at hand. For sps and other corals the answers are different

 

[TJ's Reef]

Grandis, unless you yes you can post some actual positive evidence of your theory's here please refrain from continuing these nonsensical ramblings. I to have spent MANY HOURS Snorkeling off the shores of Oahu and Kauai and can tell you for a fact that those shallow waters exposed to the harshness of the Sun ARE NOT IDEAL CONDITIONS FOR LIFE that in nature plants and animals will adapt by any means possible to grow where there is available space. Cacti grow in the Desert not because its ideal but because they can and most others cannot. THE SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN TO BE IDEAL ZONE IS LOCATED AT 15-20 METERS IN DEPTH. This fact alone pretty much disqualifies most everything you have preached here on the subject. So once again your opinions are just that and certainly entitled to them but don't insult those of us that are actually educated in real science.

[/COLOR]It takes a lot to get under my thick skin but this one has obviously done so "Can we please get back to original Thread Topic now"


Cheers, Todd[/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[benny z]

while i don't necessarily agree or disagree with mr. grandis's view, i will say that i feel like we need to remember the spirit of r2r here.

he's brought up an interesting topic, which i admittedly don't fully understand, and that's something i appreciate this forum for - the diversity of thought.

let's remember to be polite in our responses, please!

 

[jservedio]

I figured I would post this because of grandis talking about "heat" coming from light sources and how it somehow mysteriously effects corals... IR light will only penetrate a couple centimeters into water - nearly all IR will be absorbed as heat within 40mm. IR wavelengths coming from your lights will have no effects on your coral whatsoever since it is absorbed way before it can reach them. IR being generated by your lighting is simply wasting energy because the energy being spent on producing IR could be spent producing usable spectra... not only that but it'll be heating your tank since all of it is absorbed as heat at the surface

27% of all surface light will not penetrate more than 1 centimeter into the water. This is why the surface of your pool (the top couple of inches) is much, much warmer than it is at the bottom or just a few inches down. The shorter the wavelength, the less it will penetrate...

Here is the proof - this is absorbed electromagnetic energy at ONE CENTIMETER:

Again, IR has absolutely no bearing on your corals whatsoever because it doesn't reach them....

 

[Pappy]

Thinking this is just another example of a "jedimasterben led" thread. There is clearly no point in arguing with grandis and he is doing nothing but stirring the pot with no scientific evidence to back statements.

I and the previous post^^^^ posted how infrared is completely irrelevant with ANY artificial light source we use over our tanks. Notice no reply on any of it.

 

[rhino56]

bunch of mumbo jumbo. Just because corals can grow from sunlight does not mean it is the best possible light for them. The life a coral has in the ocean is difficult and has taken adaptation to their environment to survive. In a fish tank we can take away the competing corals, give the exact light they need for the best possible growth, and that light is not a heat lamp.

 

[bigfoot86]

I think grandis realizes he will never be able to provide proof to his theory. WE ALL have the proof in our led tanks, and that all the evidence we need!

 

[A. grandis]

I've got the email referring the update on the thread and see what was posted.
I've said that I do not need to proof anything here, remember?
I don't want to have to poof because I don't care if you believe or not. With all the respect.
Unfortunately I have no time to try to proof, even if I wanted to.
I've been working like crazy and with couple problems in mind, and hardly have time to be with my family and rest.
You believe in what you want and if you did the homework you would find out some simple true answers for your questions.

This isn't a good way to try to know the truth.
If you want to understand more, please stop trying to proof me wrong with your graphics and words, because that won't help you out at all.
You all want to believe your LEDs are better than MHs and T5s, but I'm sorry, it isn't at all.

I'll keep this thread in mind for when I have some extra time in the future and can help you guys out.
If you knew me you would see that I aways like to debate and find out more.
You would also know that when I'm wrong I will tell you and agree. I'm not proud at all. I don't care. this is just a hobby.
Many more important things in life than reef tanks, trust me on that!!
Chame on you guys, the way you write. Some write like teens.

Remember: I do not care if you agree with me or not. I won't sell you any MHs or T5s anyway!!
Have a nice time with your LEDs. You have it all figured out anyways.

Grandis.

 

[A. grandis]

Artificial light from OSRAM, metal halide, transmits infra red radiation:
http://assets.sylvania.com/assets/documents/fo_warning4.3d7f4b78-0724-4bbc-9280-8d577709cb41.pdf

Warnings about heat using USHIO lamps:
Lamp Safety and Handling - Support

So, the artificial incandescent lamps do transmit heat/IR radiation.

Grandis.

 

[RiverRat]

Hi,
To be honest I didn't read every post in this thread, but I thought I would share my experience.
I used to have VHO for lighting and my corals were happy and healthy. My light broke, so I decided to take the plunge into the world of LEDs.
I now have the Pacific Sun Hyperion S and I love it (since June 2013).
The corals are still happy and healthy, but now with amazing color pop.
I did notice that I am getting much faster growth rate in all my corals (LPS, Zoa/Paly, softies...........I don't own SPS, so I can't comment on them) since switching to my new light.
You can count me in with the LED crowd now.

 

[A. grandis]

The CRI and Infra red are the only explanation I have to see MHs and T5s better than LEDs, as I wrote on my first post.

"The only reason incandescent lights have a CRI of 100 is because when CRI standards were put in place incandescent light was the only source of artificial light known. Regulators just could not foresee that one day LED's will be able to produce better quality light than incandescent bulbs. They have a CRI in the 80’s because incandescent bulb with a CRI of 100 is the standard. Now that standard itself is under scrutiny. There is a debate to change the standards to reflect the reality of today’s lighting technology"

They wanna change the CRI now because of LEDs. That isn't accurate/fair because the CRI is comparison to the sun and the LEDs doesn't fit in there yet.

The text above is from a web site in favor of LEDs.
Demystifying Lighting Jargon - Color Rendering Index

There are other sources, that I couldn't find today, that will explain some relationship between CRI and infra red (heat) to bring the incandescent bulbs in favor and diminish a little the use of today's LEDs.
IR radiation is rapidly absorbed at the surface of the water, but the IR radiation of incandescent bulbs are also responsible for 95% of their light source. That is a property that we should consider, together with CRI.

I appreciate all the people that will post about their experiences with LEDs. Please expose the brands and all info you can.
I aways do that and will. As I've said, I'm not against LEDs!

If you actually see LEDs as better light source than MHs and T5s, besides less electricity and heat emission, please describe it.
I never had anyone saying that yet, with a plausible explanation or time range of use. That's going to be hard to find, I guess. At least for a while.
Keep having fun.
I have to get some sleep now...

Grandis.

 

[Pappy]

Artificial light from OSRAM, metal halide, transmits infra red radiation:
http://assets.sylvania.com/assets/documents/fo_warning4.3d7f4b78-0724-4bbc-9280-8d577709cb41.pdf

Warnings about heat using USHIO lamps:
Lamp Safety and Handling - Support

So, the artificial incandescent lamps do transmit heat/IR radiation.

Sooooo first you say you are too busy and you don't have time to prove your point then you go out of your way to post irrelevant links. Then proceed to post a bunch of jargon.....

These 2 links are not bulbs we use over fixtures on fish tanks. Yes they produce infrared radiation! BUT neither of which we use over a tank. One bulb is a shop light for $11 and the other is a xenon bulb for $300.

Here is an led the produces infrared radiation!
http://m.ebay.com/itm/310489395409?cmd=VIDESC&gxo=true
There are also several used for other applications but not over fish tanks.

Please compare apples to apples here and post other links. We all appreciate your opinion on this and that is why you have received so much response BUT you've still yet to prove your point!

As far as making it personal by stating some type like teenagers, etc....

That was inconsiderate and shows something of your character.

I've researched your name and see that you stir the pot on reef central too.

On reef central you create same arguments with no backing to statements similar to this thread.

Notice I'm typing like a teenager also with the multiple paragraphs kind of like your last post.

Please give us some legitimate examples proving your point regarding bulbs we can actually use!

It's 37 degrees in Florida right now so I could use some infrared radiation to keep my tank warm.

So please post a link where I can order a metal halide bulb or t5 that produces ir for my tank.

I'm so glad u posted previous links because I ordered 10 of the metal halide bulbs so I can heat my house instead of using the heat strip on my Ac unit.

Those bulbs will be so much more efficient!

 

[bigfoot86]

Now matter how much you try to prove and inform us on how all mh and t5s are better than leds, it will never change the fact that my livestock including zoas has flourished 3X times better than under my t5's and that's a FACT! I'm sorry grandis, your statement that t5 and mh is DEFINITELY better, despite a lot of led users' extreme success, is just AGAIN your opinion. Your trying to prove your point by throwing a whole bunch of literature, and like I said before, nothing tells the truth like actual visual evidence. Sorry, all that mumbo jumbo your feeding us goes right out the window. Think it's time for some 'updated' research!