Are Chinese LED's bad/inferior?

[bhazard451]

What type of PAR are you seeing on the sand bed?

Bill

At 100%, 2 Reefbreeders Photon 32 (Evergrow IT2080) fixtures measure 380 PAR for me at 100% at the sandbed, dead center under each fixture, 22" deep water, 9" height above water, 125 gallon 6ft. long tank. The Radion Pro measured 350 in my tank, and I would need 3 to keep it that way. I kid you not.

The fans are quiet, unlike the Taotronics and many other versions out there.

At 100% for an hour, the fixture is cool to the touch. The Radion Pro is hot to the touch and will burn your hand at 100% for an hour.

You can see the PAR meter in tank in this pic. I sold my Radion a few days after the test. I also upgraded the layout from cool white/warm white which is in this pic, to neutral white, cyan, and 430+420nm violet since.



This is from a few weeks ago, and there has been more growth since, which I can try to take a pic of tomorrow.

 

[ReefLEDLights]

Thanks for the quick feedback

My apologies for stepping in but some Vendors have a reputation for noisy fans and hot fixtures (Name Withheld)...

Glad you like the results.

Lots of ways to to do things right.

Keep us posted...

Bill

 

[Ron Reefman]

I switched from 1000w of MH and 160w of t5 to EverGrow IT2080's in late Dec 2012. Here is what the tank looked like Feb 1st after I got things acclimated.



And here is the tank as of Aug 1st 2013, 6 months after the first photo and 7 months and 2 weeks after the new leds went on.



I have outlined a few corals so you can see the growth. There is NO algae at all in the tank. An yes, these are cheap Chinese fixtures. Some of you need to quit turning your noses up and look at the world in front of you. There are good quality products and crap products made both in the US and in China. Pay attention to the manufacturer not the country of origin.

 

[chefmur]

I have three Radium Pro over my 150 SPS tank and love them, I wanted to put an led unit over my sump to uar as a frag tank and obviously did not want to spend that kind of money. I went with a Taotronics model from Amazon for $160. Only had a few weeks but I am blown away by the build and light quality. It is built solid and has dimmable manual control for both whites and blues, runs cooler than my Radiums and cost a 5th of the price. My coral frags look as good as the mother colanies in my main tank, I was sceptical because I have always beleived you get what you pay for, so far these have exceeded my expectations.

 

[saliva911]

They are...You normally get what you pay for.

They are about 1/2 as bright as Cree Fixture using XT-E LEDs. I measured a similar maybe the same (everyone, their brother and their second cousin are importing these) 120 watt fixture at 200PAR and 169 watts. A Cree XT-E Fixture with 45 LEDs measured 469 PAR and 118 watts...Thats over twice as bright!

Yes, the Cree Fixtures may be 2-3 times more. Here is a list on how they keep the cost low.

-Inefficient dated LEDs with counterfeits common.
-Cheap stamped housing
-Little or no heatsink
-Cheap Fans and Drivers
-No Dimmability via a controller like APEX or Reef Angel
-Limited warranty with lots of horror stories.

Bill

What's the point of having all that power yet most use about 50% of it if not they burn the corals

 

[SuperTang]

Think of LEDs like cars. What do we use cars for? To get us from point A to point B. Sure I might not have a Mercedes but at the end of the day it gets me where I want to go. Same with LEDs I don't need a high dollar luxury light the Chinese lights work just as well and at the end of the day corals do well, without the high dollar price.

»)))'> »)))'> »)))'>

 

[chk4tix]

What's the point of having all that power yet most use about 50% of it if not they burn the corals

Even though I currently run 2 Radion Pro, I tend to agree with this statement. Before prepping for my new tank build which I did buy my Radions, I had 3 Nova A4 LED's on my 150g tank. They ran quiet and worked very well when it came to color and growth. However, I decided to make the move to Radions because
I figured they had to be so much better since they are from a top of he line maker. I will say the Radions are smaller then my A4's and brighter. however, since they are so much more powerful, I cannot run them at full power, I have to keep them at 45% or everything starts to bleach. This means my tank cant be lit as brightly as with the A4's. That is one thing i miss about my A4's or T5's for matter, is the ability to have a bright tank and not one that appears dim all day long

 

[reefkoi]

Even though I currently run 2 Radion Pro, I tend to agree with this statement. Before prepping for my new tank build which I did buy my Radions, I had 3 Nova A4 LED's on my 150g tank. They ran quiet and worked very well when it came to color and growth. However, I decided to make the move to Radions because
I figured they had to be so much better since they are from a top of he line maker. I will say the Radions are smaller then my A4's and brighter. however, since they are so much more powerful, I cannot run them at full power, I have to keep them at 45% or everything starts to bleach. This means my tank cant be lit as brightly as with the A4's. That is one thing i miss about my A4's or T5's for matter, is the ability to have a bright tank and not one that appears dim all day long

So true! I don't use secondary lens' on mine because of this problem. I've seen guys successfully keep chalices, lobos, acans, tons of polyps, hammers on the very bottom of a tank that's 36" deep and using 3w LEDs ran a little shy of 2w each with just a 90 degree primary lens.

 

[ReefLEDLights]

What's the point of having all that power yet most use about 50% of it if not they burn the corals

For me its about recreating the natural environment. Its also about recreating what has been successful in the past.

There is a reason why most successful tanks used 400 and 250 watt MH with either T5 or VHO.

Once acclimated corals especially SPS and LPS like Euphyllia grow better with more light. Especially if the light recreates the natural intensity of the reef.

People burn their corals when they quickly increase the intensity or PAR that the coral receive. Anyone upgrading from a 175 watt MH to 400 watt MH will burn their coral. LEDs are also spectrum specific so they may offer more PAR than advertised.

Cheap Chinese Fixtures have been popular for about three years and now that their are more people using we will have a better idea on how long they will last. If you are swapping out MHs with a quality $300-400 Chinese Fixture and get 3-4 years out of it you are shooting PAR (Excuse the Pun).

If you upgrade to the Mercedes, Its very possible that the fixture will last much longer and in the long run a better value. I've designed a few fixtures and using parts that are rated for 50,000 hours instead of 10,000 hours costs a little more but in the long run offers a much better value. Heat is the killer in electronics the better rated longer lasting parts produce less heat and are also more efficient. This savings in electricity can easily make up for the added cost of a quality fixture.

Bill

 

[ReefLEDLights]

 

[bucksfan1976]

I drive a BMW and run reef breeders LEDs, am I trying to compensate something with my car? ......,, LOL sorry had to

 

[ReefLEDLights]

I drive a BMW and run reef breeders LEDs, am I trying to compensate something with my car? ......,, LOL sorry had to

I ride a BMW GS1200 Motorcycle.

I paid a little more because I know she wont let me down years down the road.

I gotta say it. I like the reef breeders and had the privilege to personally test the PAR on their better fixture.

What I can say is their performance is what I would want for my reef. Not a paltry 50-60 on the sand bed.

Keep us informed to their reliability I'm sure its much better than a typical EBay Fixture or one with noisy fans that runs too hot.

I chose a different route and not to import a fixture from China.

Bill

 

[bucksfan1976]

I got a 525i. Avg 32.4 mpg love it , I took pics of the tank before the switch and ill do a 30, 180 and a year update

 

[ReefLEDLights]

I got a 525i. Avg 32.4 mpg love it , I took pics of the tank before the switch and ill do a 30, 180 and a year update

My 1200GS gives me 36-38 mpg but that little devil on my shoulder makes me ride her hard...I could squeeze out 40 mpg but would be passed on the highway...

Thanks

Keep us posted.

Bill

 

[fyrfytr]

I know that I am pretty much a nobody with no answers to anything and a lot more questions then I need to really ask...but how much of this is functionality vs brand recognition? Sure this hobby is an expensive one, but does it really have to be? What is the difference between Toyota and Lexus...not a while lot. They come off the same line, have the same engines, same paint, same keys...just a few small differences and the fact that in a lot of eyes Lexus is a status symbol. Its no different then the "designer" clownfish, in my opinion. The LED technology has come a really long way in a short time. When the first LED lightbars (police and fire) came out I thought they were horrible, now I challenge you to find an agency that hasnt adopted them as their primary lighting package. As with computers, as technology advances costs change...newer technology is a higher price where as the older technology is redused in price to make room for the new stuff. Sure 5w LEDs and multi-chip LEDs are all the rage, but when Cree was making the 1w diode people were saying how good those lights were. Now, people wouldn't touch a Cree 1w diode...why....cuz it isn't the newest and best? Sure the newer technology is "better"...but can you really define better? People were raving about their coral growth and color when the 1w was all there was, so it worked just fine then, why is it bashed now?

Other issue I have with this arguement is the the fact that it is LIGHT...its there or its not. Other then small differences in wavelength, 1w is 1w...3w is 3w. Doesn't matter who the manufacturer is, it is all the same. All factors the same, a Bridgelux diode running at 100% puts out 1w of light....the same as a Cree diode. There will be differences in wavelength because of manufacturing differences but in lighting amount it should be the same. And sine PAR is a halogen light term, I am not sure how it effects LED.

 

[Ron Reefman]

For me its about recreating the natural environment. Its also about recreating what has been successful in the past.

Cheap Chinese Fixtures have been popular for about three years and now that their are more people using we will have a better idea on how long they will last. If you are swapping out MHs with a quality $300-400 Chinese Fixture and get 3-4 years out of it you are shooting PAR (Excuse the Pun).

If you upgrade to the Mercedes, Its very possible that the fixture will last much longer and in the long run a better value. I've designed a few fixtures and using parts that are rated for 50,000 hours instead of 10,000 hours costs a little more but in the long run offers a much better value. Heat is the killer in electronics the better rated longer lasting parts produce less heat and are also more efficient. This savings in electricity can easily make up for the added cost of a quality fixture.

Bill

Just what is natural environment when it comes to a 24" to 36" deep reef tank with corals that came from considerably deeper water? Are you trying for a fixture that looks like natural sunlight? Or should it be natural sunlight at 5' deep in saltwater? Or 10' deep, or 20' deep, or 30' deep? Have you looked at coral while 20' or 30' deep in the water without any artificial light? It all looks gray.

So far, who is keeping even the "better quality" led fixtures more than 2 or 3 years? I saw a poll on another forum and the percentage of people who had led fixtures they bought new and still had even 2 years later was below 25%. Over 3 years was less than 10%. Heck, mine are only 7 months old and I'm looking at a new system from OceanRevive that's due to be available in a month. And I can probably sell my old lights for about what I paid for them.

Your statement that, "Heat is the killer in electronics the better rated longer lasting parts produce less heat and are also more efficient. This savings in electricity can easily make up for the added cost of a quality fixture." I'll agree that the cost of electricity in ANY led set up will save you money over MH or t5. But your Radion Pro fixture isn't anywhere near more efficient enough than my Chinese fixture to justify owning it based on electricity saving... unless you plan to use it for 50 years or more.:wink: I have just under $700 worth of Chinese led fixtures over my 180g and to get the same PAR values I would need at least $2700, more likely $3600 worth of Radion Pro fixtures. How long do you figure it will take cover the extra $2900? And just to be fair, the fixtures I have would cost $900 retail today, and $1000 back when I got them, but I got mine in a big group buy for $340 each (just under $700 total).

 

[ReefLEDLights]

Just what is natural environment when it comes to a 24" to 36" deep reef tank with corals that came from considerably deeper water? Are you trying for a fixture that looks like natural sunlight? Or should it be natural sunlight at 5' deep in saltwater? Or 10' deep, or 20' deep, or 30' deep? Have you looked at coral while 20' or 30' deep in the water without any artificial light? It all looks gray.

So far, who is keeping even the "better quality" led fixtures more than 2 or 3 years? I saw a poll on another forum and the percentage of people who had led fixtures they bought new and still had even 2 years later was below 25%. Over 3 years was less than 10%. Heck, mine are only 7 months old and I'm looking at a new system from OceanRevive that's due to be available in a month. And I can probably sell my old lights for about what I paid for them.

Your statement that, "Heat is the killer in electronics the better rated longer lasting parts produce less heat and are also more efficient. This savings in electricity can easily make up for the added cost of a quality fixture." I'll agree that the cost of electricity in ANY led set up will save you money over MH or t5. But your Radion Pro fixture isn't anywhere near more efficient enough than my Chinese fixture to justify owning it based on electricity saving... unless you plan to use it for 50 years or more.:wink: I have just under $700 worth of Chinese led fixtures over my 180g and to get the same PAR values I would need at least $2700, more likely $3600 worth of Radion Pro fixtures. How long do you figure it will take cover the extra $2900? And just to be fair, the fixtures I have would cost $900 retail today, and $1000 back when I got them, but I got mine in a big group buy for $340 each (just under $700 total).

The Radion Pro is a bit pricey for the number of LEDs and its intensity. But consider a $400 Controllable Chinese Fixture that can accurately simulate the intensity change of a natural sunlight to a $600 controllable domestic fixture that is brighter and uses less electricity. If the Chinese Fixture Lasts 2-3 Years and the Domestic Fixture lasts 5-6 which is the better value?

When I say natural environment I like to replicate the Spectrum found at 10-20 meters were most of the coral in the reefs I have dived on are. Yes there are more shallow Reefs and water turbidity should be considered. There is a lot opinion here on whats best I just know what has worked well and looks great in our tanks.

There are a lot of variables in fixture design and sometimes a few compromises. I've posted earlier where I feel many, not all Chinese Fixtures fall short.

When talking about better technology, its simple. The 5 watt Cree XT-E when driven at 2 watts can be more than twice as bright as some 3 watt LEDs driven at 2 watts. They also run much cooler and are engineered to last 50,000 hours not 30,000 hours.The street price of the Cree is around twice the price of current 3 watt LEDs. Brighter, cooler and given performance and longevity less expensive.

With only 10% using LED Fixtures over three years one cannot say precisely the reliability of the more numerous Ebay Imports. If I was to guess based on my 6+ Years of LED Experience I would say that a large number will start showing problems after 2-4 years. If they last 4 years then the owner would be even on bulb replacement.

Bill

 

[Trickdout69]

I started off using one of the ajm reef lights over my 56g reef tank about a year or more ago and couldn't be any happier. My corals have grown so much and look great. So now I have upgraded to a 210g tank and bought 4 more of the same exact lights and while the coral in that tank are doing just as good the problem I'm having is the tank looks washed out. The color of the corals and fish just don't look any where as good as the did in the smaller tank. Two out of the four lights have optics and it doesn't seem to help. Everything just looks so colorless. I can't explaine it it's weird. Anyone have any ideas

 

[Tony_D]

I made the switch from Halides to T5s and about 6 weeks ago to some Chinese LEDs, mine aren't like the ever grow units and are passively cooled and even after running @ 100% for 3 hours are barely warm to the touch! My color is better and growth is on PAR(pardon the pun) with the halides! I have only for a short time but I am more than happy thus far. $580 for 4 fixtures, the controller and shipping from China. I was paying $160 every 9-10 months to replace T5 lamps...and growth rate was about 1/2 of what i'm seeing now. Halides were $150 on the same 9-10 month rotation and color was nowhere near as good as i have now, so again it's a win for my LEDs. Should I decide to upgrade or change any LEDs with the fixture I chose it's an easy process and I can also change them to standard drivers should the need arise. If I get 2 years ate this Growht/color rate, it's worth it to me!

6 weeks with Chinese LEDs and Chinese Pumps!

Pictures on the right were taken last night with my GS3, no editing of any kind, pics on the left were from the person selling the frag pack i received 6-18-2013, the LEDs went on my tank 6-22-2013.

 

[bhazard451]

Not as is well with Chinese LEDs either, despite my liking of a few companies' fixtures.

I did a test by adding some "12k and 14k" Epistar over the past month, despite liking their spectrum chart, and many of my SPS have not responded well. All the green ones grew very fast, but all the other colored ones washed out a bit. These leds will be replaced with neutrals again that have done well for me asap.

That is the main issue with chinese fixtures and leds. Some are great, and some are horrible. Luckily, it isn't as much of a gamble anymore with some US companies importing the good ones. Still, domestic companies own fixtures are less of a gamble for sure. AI is nearly starting to hit the price/performance ratio I would pay for my lighting, but even years later, I feel they need more progress.