Current Quarantine Protocol

[Alex.qld]

update as i cant find where to edit this post - i have given up and removed the copper,
the anthias on the photo is probably beyond recovery, the others might

i am well aware of correlation not being causation - and will wait a little more to see what happens

 

[Superlightman]

sometimes, dynamics can change in bare quarantine tanks.

The tang does appear to still have ich. You need to get the copper up to a full, constant dose.

The rocks are pulling the copper, however you fish may be relying on those rocks to keep the ammonia level down. If not, then yes, you need to remove the rocks.

Jay

Yes I need them for the amonia fir now, but I keeped since days the level high, I had some copper every day, the last days I not was under 500,even to high yesterday with 575.but the white spots get worse are you sure it is Ick?
I think I will give it a try to ad the rally with the upper.
Or can I add the prazi?

 

[BetteMidler]

Are there any issues using a sintered glass filter media such as biohome for the QT? It shouldn't absorb the meds, correct? Should I just stick with a plastic or foam material?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hello and thanks for sharing the protocl
this is my 2nd run, this time with

-5 anthias
- 2 ocellaris
-1 lawnmower blenny

the tank is cycled and has plastic bioballs + 2 coarse sponges that were cycled in the DT
large airstone making plenty of bubbles

- using natural sea water
- now 22 days into the process
- first did 2 rounds of prazipro - no issues
- started copper power 7 days ago, ramping to 2.2 over 24 hours in 3 administrations
- fish had been happy, looking health and swimming around the water column, eating well, esp if feeding mysis - a bit less with pellets (expectedly)
- from day 5 of copper the anthias had been looking less and less happy, and swimming lower down
ammonia 0 to 0.5 (really hard to make the diff on these color charts) and copper 2.2
i made a 50% water change with water already at copper 2.2
they still look very unhappy, if not worse


blenny and ocellaris seem happy as before

i am considering
- continue and hope for the best
- following any suggestions
- stopping the process and changing to water w/o copper hoping they recover

see the video


what do you think ?

thanks

alexis

You modified things a bit by doing prazi first and then copper. I run things the other way around. The risk is that protozoan diseases kill faster than flukes do, so should be dealt with first.

That said, I can’t see any evidence of protozoan disease in the video. I couldn’t see on my phone though, any rapid breathing?

Anthias are fine in copper power, so as long as your test is accurate, I wouldn’t be concerned about that.

Do you know the source of the anthias, where they were caught?

Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Yes I need them for the amonia fir now, but I keeped since days the level high, I had some copper every day, the last days I not was under 500,even to high yesterday with 575.but the white spots get worse are you sure it is Ick?
I think I will give it a try to ad the rally with the upper.
Or can I add the prazi?

There may be mucus plugs mixed in, but yes, I do think there is still ich there. For Cupramine, you need at least 14 days of full dose, 21 is better.
The problem isn’t caused by flukes, but at some point, you will need to run prazi.
You could try pulling the copper and running prazi, but just be prepared to add the copper back if things get worse.
Jay

 

[Superlightman]

There may be mucus plugs mixed in, but yes, I do think there is still ich there. For Cupramine, you need at least 14 days of full dose, 21 is better.
The problem isn’t caused by flukes, but at some point, you will need to run prazi.
You could try pulling the copper and running prazi, but just be prepared to add the copper back if things get worse.
Jay

OK but do copper and prazi same time is too much for the fish?

 

[Alex.qld]

You modified things a bit by doing prazi first and then copper. I run things the other way around. The risk is that protozoan diseases kill faster than flukes do, so should be dealt with first.

That said, I can’t see any evidence of protozoan disease in the video. I couldn’t see on my phone though, any rapid breathing?

Anthias are fine in copper power, so as long as your test is accurate, I wouldn’t be concerned about that.

Do you know the source of the anthias, where they were caught?

Jay

HI Jay
Yes, i started with Prazi because i was waiting to have the foam / bioballs to be completely cycled before doing copper since i had to remove any rock from there - i am unsure how this would have influenced the issues .
The fish are from the great barrier reef, probably cairns or around there, which is a short hike from here - before a few days ago they looked super happy and healthy

the anthias that was looking the worst is now dead, one is not looking good and 3 are recovering
there hasnt been any rapid breathing or signs on the skin that would make me think of a disease - what happened is that the fish looked slowed down and started to lie on the bottom, no external signs of a disease besides the slowing down and slowly dying

regards

alex

 

[Alex.qld]

forgot to say, all tests were done with the Hanna checker, which i found to be extremely reliable

 

[Jay Hemdal]

HI Jay
Yes, i started with Prazi because i was waiting to have the foam / bioballs to be completely cycled before doing copper since i had to remove any rock from there - i am unsure how this would have influenced the issues .
The fish are from the great barrier reef, probably cairns or around there, which is a short hike from here - before a few days ago they looked super happy and healthy

the anthias that was looking the worst is now dead, one is not looking good and 3 are recovering
there hasnt been any rapid breathing or signs on the skin that would make me think of a disease - what happened is that the fish looked slowed down and started to lie on the bottom, no external signs of a disease besides the slowing down and slowly dying

regards

alex

O.K., that rules out sourcing issues. I'm not sure what happened here. I've dosed anthias with coppersafe many times and that is essentially the same formulation as copper power. However, I am very selective as to what anthias I will acquire, so there are others out there that could be different in terms of suitability. Pardon my ignorance, but are these dispars? I'm bad with IDing anthias with regional variations compounded with dimorphism.

Jay

 

[FernBluffReef]

Hi. New to reef2reef. 20 years out of the hobby. Never quarantined anything back then and really didn’t experience many issues. Didn’t have a lot of fish but had ~ dozen or so in a 180g display. Getting back into the hobby and wanting more fish this time.

I got thru page 14 of this thread before becoming overwhelmed and going back to the procedure on page #1

Question I don’t see answered is in addition to no calcareous rock (small amount of macro rock is out I guess then). What about roller mat filters and/or skimmers. I assume the skimmer is out even though excellent oxygen adder? Is a reefmatt also a poly filter and unsuitable?

Basically I’m planning on two tanks that both can both be full up DT and may be in the end. One is much smaller than the other so will be QT for the main in the beginning. Once the main DT is running/stocked I likely will make the small tank an office DT and may get a small less functional QT but in general I’m also troubled with putting say tangs in a small QT for two months vs a small DT QT. That and of itself seems stressful vs a small DT used for initial QT.

Making sense?

 

[Alex.qld]

O.K., that rules out sourcing issues. I'm not sure what happened here. I've dosed anthias with coppersafe many times and that is essentially the same formulation as copper power. However, I am very selective as to what anthias I will acquire, so there are others out there that could be different in terms of suitability. Pardon my ignorance, but are these dispars? I'm bad with IDing anthias with regional variations compounded with dimorphism.

Jay

Hello - yes you are correct, dispar anthias, at least sold as such

 

[Hatuey]

2023 Quarantine Procedures

Jay Hemdal
David Scarborough



Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed quarantine process can effectively eliminate these parasites before adding the fish to your display tank. This process does not control Brooklynella, Uronema, viruses or internal parasites. These issues however, make up a much smaller number of disease cases in marine fish.

Quarantine tank Requirements:

Tank must be large enough to comfortably handle the number and size of fish for up to 9 weeks.

• Tank should have a filtration system that has completed the nitrogen cycle. Canisters, HOB overflow filters, or appropriately sized sponge filters are acceptable.
• The filtration system must not use carbon or other absorbing/adsorbing filtrants (e.g. Polyfilter) that might absorb copper or medication. NO calcareous rock LIVE or DEAD
• Bare bottom should be used. A saucer with non-absorbing sand can be utilized for wrasses, gobies, blennies or other species which are overly stressed by the bare bottom. Painting the underside of the tank black can also help
• Heater/thermometer
• Removable structure, e.g. PVC pipe may be used to provide hiding places for the fish.
• Ambient light will often be adequate for the QT tank.
• A means to maintain oxygen levels should be available. Air stones and sponge filters are usually adequate.
• A lid should be used to prevent the fish from jumping out of the tank.
• Set salinity level and temperature to the same levels as in your Display Tank.

Days 1 – 2: Observation - let the fish settle in and determine proper diet.

• Set QT temperature to 78 - 80 degrees F.
• Acclimate the new fish to the QT:
  • Measure salinity of the water in which the fish arrived.
  • Adjust salinity in QT to within 2 ppt of the salinity of the water in which the fish arrived.
  • Acclimate the fish to the QT gradually over 45 minutes.
• Observe the fish for any symptoms which might influence the treatment(s) you should administer.
• Determine if the fish are eating adequately to proceed.

Day 2: Begin Copper Treatment

• Add Coppersafe to the QT to achieve a concentration of 2.25 to 2.50 ppm over the course of 24 hours. This can be done in two doses 12 hours apart or multiple smaller doses if you prefer. Coppersafe will not be effective until a concentration over 2.0 ppm is present. A target of 2.25 ppm will allow for fluctuations without the risk of falling below the 2.0 ppm threshold. Hanna Copper checker is the most accurate test to use.
• Never use ammonia removing products or other reducing agents (dechlorinator) when dosing copper. Most products bind copper with an amine to reduce toxicity to the fish. Reducing agents break that bond, releasing free copper that can harm the fish.
• Feed and top off tank water normally.

Days 3 – 32: Continue Copper Treatment

• Monitor copper ppm regularly. If the copper level remains steady day to day, you can test less often, but if the concentration falls below 2.0 ppm, you may need to restart the 30-day count for the copper treatment.
• Monitor water quality parameters as you would for your display tank.
• If the copper or ammonia levels ever exceed guidelines, be prepared to administer water changes (pre dosed with copper) to correct the problem.

Day 34: Copper Done

• Begin copper removal through water changes.
• Binding agents Cuprisorb may be used to hasten the removal process.
• Carbon is usually too slow or ineffective at removing copper and should not be relied upon without adequate monitoring.

Day 35: Praziquantel Treatment #1

• Confirm copper has been removed adequately to drop the concentration to less than 1 ppm. Copper and Prazi should not be administered simultaneously.
• Add Prazipro to the QT per the instructions on the label.
• Ensure the additional oxygenation source is working. This treatment will potentially reduce the oxygen levels within the QT to critical levels without additional air flow.

Day 42, Day 49: Praziquantel Treatment #2, #3

• Add Prazipro to the QT per the instructions on the label, 7 days apart. Spacing needed for these treatments is based on killing new flukes hatching from previously laid eggs. The time interval is not well known. A range of 7 to 9 days seems to give the best results.

Day 64: New Fish QT complete

• Observe fish for 2 weeks after last prazi dose. Note: many public aquariums do not move fish out of quarantine unless they are in the middle of a full copper treatment. This vastly reduces the risk from Cryptocaryon or Amyloodinium. To use that method, substitute a copper treatment for this 2 week observation period, and move the fish out around day 10.
• Conduct a 5-minute fresh water dip if the fish is of a species particularly susceptible to Neobenedenia flukes. If flukes are detected, reduce QT salinity to 50% and hold for an additional 35 days.
• Confirm salinity and temperature of QT and DT are the same, add fish to DT.

64 days?!

2023 Quarantine Procedures

Jay Hemdal
David Scarborough



Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed quarantine process can effectively eliminate these parasites before adding the fish to your display tank. This process does not control Brooklynella, Uronema, viruses or internal parasites. These issues however, make up a much smaller number of disease cases in marine fish.

Quarantine tank Requirements:

Tank must be large enough to comfortably handle the number and size of fish for up to 9 weeks.

• Tank should have a filtration system that has completed the nitrogen cycle. Canisters, HOB overflow filters, or appropriately sized sponge filters are acceptable.
• The filtration system must not use carbon or other absorbing/adsorbing filtrants (e.g. Polyfilter) that might absorb copper or medication. NO calcareous rock LIVE or DEAD
• Bare bottom should be used. A saucer with non-absorbing sand can be utilized for wrasses, gobies, blennies or other species which are overly stressed by the bare bottom. Painting the underside of the tank black can also help
• Heater/thermometer
• Removable structure, e.g. PVC pipe may be used to provide hiding places for the fish.
• Ambient light will often be adequate for the QT tank.
• A means to maintain oxygen levels should be available. Air stones and sponge filters are usually adequate.
• A lid should be used to prevent the fish from jumping out of the tank.
• Set salinity level and temperature to the same levels as in your Display Tank.

Days 1 – 2: Observation - let the fish settle in and determine proper diet.

• Set QT temperature to 78 - 80 degrees F.
• Acclimate the new fish to the QT:
  • Measure salinity of the water in which the fish arrived.
  • Adjust salinity in QT to within 2 ppt of the salinity of the water in which the fish arrived.
  • Acclimate the fish to the QT gradually over 45 minutes.
• Observe the fish for any symptoms which might influence the treatment(s) you should administer.
• Determine if the fish are eating adequately to proceed.

Day 2: Begin Copper Treatment

• Add Coppersafe to the QT to achieve a concentration of 2.25 to 2.50 ppm over the course of 24 hours. This can be done in two doses 12 hours apart or multiple smaller doses if you prefer. Coppersafe will not be effective until a concentration over 2.0 ppm is present. A target of 2.25 ppm will allow for fluctuations without the risk of falling below the 2.0 ppm threshold. Hanna Copper checker is the most accurate test to use.
• Never use ammonia removing products or other reducing agents (dechlorinator) when dosing copper. Most products bind copper with an amine to reduce toxicity to the fish. Reducing agents break that bond, releasing free copper that can harm the fish.
• Feed and top off tank water normally.

Days 3 – 32: Continue Copper Treatment

• Monitor copper ppm regularly. If the copper level remains steady day to day, you can test less often, but if the concentration falls below 2.0 ppm, you may need to restart the 30-day count for the copper treatment.
• Monitor water quality parameters as you would for your display tank.
• If the copper or ammonia levels ever exceed guidelines, be prepared to administer water changes (pre dosed with copper) to correct the problem.

Day 34: Copper Done

• Begin copper removal through water changes.
• Binding agents Cuprisorb may be used to hasten the removal process.
• Carbon is usually too slow or ineffective at removing copper and should not be relied upon without adequate monitoring.

Day 35: Praziquantel Treatment #1

• Confirm copper has been removed adequately to drop the concentration to less than 1 ppm. Copper and Prazi should not be administered simultaneously.
• Add Prazipro to the QT per the instructions on the label.
• Ensure the additional oxygenation source is working. This treatment will potentially reduce the oxygen levels within the QT to critical levels without additional air flow.

Day 42, Day 49: Praziquantel Treatment #2, #3

• Add Prazipro to the QT per the instructions on the label, 7 days apart. Spacing needed for these treatments is based on killing new flukes hatching from previously laid eggs. The time interval is not well known. A range of 7 to 9 days seems to give the best results.

Day 64: New Fish QT complete

• Observe fish for 2 weeks after last prazi dose. Note: many public aquariums do not move fish out of quarantine unless they are in the middle of a full copper treatment. This vastly reduces the risk from Cryptocaryon or Amyloodinium. To use that method, substitute a copper treatment for this 2 week observation period, and move the fish out around day 10.
• Conduct a 5-minute fresh water dip if the fish is of a species particularly susceptible to Neobenedenia flukes. If flukes are detected, reduce QT salinity to 50% and hold for an additional 35 days.
• Confirm salinity and temperature of QT and DT are the same, add fish to DT.

64 days?!

I have a question:
If I get fish from the same LFS how many can I safely fit in a 15 Gallon QT? I have a 50 Gallon DT and also need to consider of not shocking the tank.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

64 days?!

64 days?!

I have a question:
If I get fish from the same LFS how many can I safely fit in a 15 Gallon QT? I have a 50 Gallon DT and also need to consider of not shocking the tank.

That depends on the size of the fish and how established the nitrifying bacteria are. Just off the cuff, you can quarantine four small fish in a 15 gallon tank that has a good bio filter.

Jay

 

[Hatuey]

That depends on the size of the fish and how established the nitrifying bacteria are. Just off the cuff, you can quarantine four small fish in a 15 gallon tank that has a good bio filter.

Jay

They will be small fish for sure (gobies, cardinal, gramma, dart fish). Any thoughts on adding those 4 small all at once into a 50 Gallon?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

They will be small fish for sure (gobies, cardinal, gramma, dart fish). Any thoughts on adding those 4 small all at once into a 50 Gallon?

If the 50 has a good biofilter, no problem with adding 4 small fish at once. Their weight would be about the same as if you added one larger fish.

Jay

 

[geekengineer]

I was debating on adding something simple to my 40-gallon breeder and always don't like to quarantine things because it's just always felt like a hassle to keep another tank going. Maybe I didn't totally get that you are supposed to medicate them in there regardless. I thought maybe you just waited to see if they were sick or die. Would it be worth it to buy from a place that says they do the quarantining for you so I didn't have to wait so long to get started? I saw this Dr Reef place for example. Downside is their shipping is expensive if you just want to get something simple. I was thinking I have started with hermit crabs before would that be a way to lightly cycle the tank or at least keep it cycled at first until I ether buy more fish and quarantine them myself or buy from a place like Dr Reef. I am currently trying to do a fishless cycle with ammonium chloride and got some nitrifying bacteria added also. So, I probably won't put anything in until it looks like that is working.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I was debating on adding something simple to my 40-gallon breeder and always don't like to quarantine things because it's just always felt like a hassle to keep another tank going. Maybe I didn't totally get that you are supposed to medicate them in there regardless. I thought maybe you just waited to see if they were sick or die. Would it be worth it to buy from a place that says they do the quarantining for you so I didn't have to wait so long to get started? I saw this Dr Reef place for example. Downside is their shipping is expensive if you just want to get something simple. I was thinking I have started with hermit crabs before would that be a way to lightly cycle the tank or at least keep it cycled at first until I ether buy more fish and quarantine them myself or buy from a place like Dr Reef. I am currently trying to do a fishless cycle with ammonium chloride and got some nitrifying bacteria added also. So, I probably won't put anything in until it looks like that is working.

It is all about risk aversion - lots of people just take the risk and don’t quarantine at all. Other people only buy fish that have been in the store for at last 3 weeks. Other people buy pre quarantined fish. Our process takes it the next level - where you quarantine your own fish under controlled conditions.

Jay

 

[geekengineer]

I forgot to ask would you also use this same protocol for inverts? I think corals are different? I usually use that coral dip.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I forgot to ask would you also use this same protocol for inverts? I think corals are different? I usually use that coral dip.

Lots of folks use dips. I prefer to hold new corals in an isolation try for at least 30 days - allows me to look for pests, let any fish parasites die out and get the corals adjusted to my lighting conditions.

I do understand not everyone has the resources to do that though.....

Jay

 

[alicia24]

2023 Quarantine Procedures

Jay Hemdal
David Scarborough



Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed quarantine process can effectively eliminate these parasites before adding the fish to your display tank. This process does not control Brooklynella, Uronema, viruses or internal parasites. These issues however, make up a much smaller number of disease cases in marine fish.

Quarantine tank Requirements:

Tank must be large enough to comfortably handle the number and size of fish for up to 9 weeks.

• Tank should have a filtration system that has completed the nitrogen cycle. Canisters, HOB overflow filters, or appropriately sized sponge filters are acceptable.
• The filtration system must not use carbon or other absorbing/adsorbing filtrants (e.g. Polyfilter) that might absorb copper or medication. NO calcareous rock LIVE or DEAD
• Bare bottom should be used. A saucer with non-absorbing sand can be utilized for wrasses, gobies, blennies or other species which are overly stressed by the bare bottom. Painting the underside of the tank black can also help
• Heater/thermometer
• Removable structure, e.g. PVC pipe may be used to provide hiding places for the fish.
• Ambient light will often be adequate for the QT tank.
• A means to maintain oxygen levels should be available. Air stones and sponge filters are usually adequate.
• A lid should be used to prevent the fish from jumping out of the tank.
• Set salinity level and temperature to the same levels as in your Display Tank.

Days 1 – 2: Observation - let the fish settle in and determine proper diet.

• Set QT temperature to 78 - 80 degrees F.
• Acclimate the new fish to the QT:
  • Measure salinity of the water in which the fish arrived.
  • Adjust salinity in QT to within 2 ppt of the salinity of the water in which the fish arrived.
  • Acclimate the fish to the QT gradually over 45 minutes.
• Observe the fish for any symptoms which might influence the treatment(s) you should administer.
• Determine if the fish are eating adequately to proceed.

Day 2: Begin Copper Treatment

• Add Coppersafe to the QT to achieve a concentration of 2.25 to 2.50 ppm over the course of 24 hours. This can be done in two doses 12 hours apart or multiple smaller doses if you prefer. Coppersafe will not be effective until a concentration over 2.0 ppm is present. A target of 2.25 ppm will allow for fluctuations without the risk of falling below the 2.0 ppm threshold. Hanna Copper checker is the most accurate test to use.
• Never use ammonia removing products or other reducing agents (dechlorinator) when dosing copper. Most products bind copper with an amine to reduce toxicity to the fish. Reducing agents break that bond, releasing free copper that can harm the fish.
• Feed and top off tank water normally.

Days 3 – 32: Continue Copper Treatment

• Monitor copper ppm regularly. If the copper level remains steady day to day, you can test less often, but if the concentration falls below 2.0 ppm, you may need to restart the 30-day count for the copper treatment.
• Monitor water quality parameters as you would for your display tank.
• If the copper or ammonia levels ever exceed guidelines, be prepared to administer water changes (pre dosed with copper) to correct the problem.

Day 34: Copper Done

• Begin copper removal through water changes.
• Binding agents Cuprisorb may be used to hasten the removal process.
• Carbon is usually too slow or ineffective at removing copper and should not be relied upon without adequate monitoring.

Day 35: Praziquantel Treatment #1

• Confirm copper has been removed adequately to drop the concentration to less than 1 ppm. Copper and Prazi should not be administered simultaneously.
• Add Prazipro to the QT per the instructions on the label.
• Ensure the additional oxygenation source is working. This treatment will potentially reduce the oxygen levels within the QT to critical levels without additional air flow.

Day 42, Day 49: Praziquantel Treatment #2, #3

• Add Prazipro to the QT per the instructions on the label, 7 days apart. Spacing needed for these treatments is based on killing new flukes hatching from previously laid eggs. The time interval is not well known. A range of 7 to 9 days seems to give the best results.

Day 64: New Fish QT complete

• Observe fish for 2 weeks after last prazi dose. Note: many public aquariums do not move fish out of quarantine unless they are in the middle of a full copper treatment. This vastly reduces the risk from Cryptocaryon or Amyloodinium. To use that method, substitute a copper treatment for this 2 week observation period, and move the fish out around day 10.
• Conduct a 5-minute fresh water dip if the fish is of a species particularly susceptible to Neobenedenia flukes. If flukes are detected, reduce QT salinity to 50% and hold for an additional 35 days.
• Confirm salinity and temperature of QT and DT are the same, add fish to DT.

What about inverts? Specifically wondering about snails. Would it just be 76 days of qurantine without meds? Is 76 days too long?
Also I read wrasses are sensitive to prazipro. Should the same dose be given to them or a reduced dose? Thank you!