Ich won't kill fish?!
- Thread starter r.bergonia19
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Lionfish Lair
Renee
With TTM, you can also use ammonia blockers and that makes the game SO much easier than with copper. You also don't have to chase pH, like you do with hypo.
I'm one of those that experienced the hypo resistant Ich. At the time we didn't know that was the part of treatment that failed. I had the fish in hypo for three months.... I didn't just leave the tank fallow, but had the fish at 1.008 the entire time. We figured the failure was with the fallow tank, but had nothing to support that either. I was smacking my forehead when the news came out that there was Ich that could tolerate lower levels of salinity than our fish can. There was an outbreak of Ich in waters with a specific gravity of 1.004 in Chiayi, Taiwan. How would we know if we had that variety or not?
I'm one of those that experienced the hypo resistant Ich. At the time we didn't know that was the part of treatment that failed. I had the fish in hypo for three months.... I didn't just leave the tank fallow, but had the fish at 1.008 the entire time. We figured the failure was with the fallow tank, but had nothing to support that either. I was smacking my forehead when the news came out that there was Ich that could tolerate lower levels of salinity than our fish can. There was an outbreak of Ich in waters with a specific gravity of 1.004 in Chiayi, Taiwan. How would we know if we had that variety or not?
That's a good point, I haven't used chelted copper, just cupermind, which I will never use again. I always found the transfer to transfer method intresting, I have actually taken the time to study the pathogen, so it makes perfect sense. I might try it one day. I just have had great success with hypo and it has worked every time for me. I suppose I have been lucky I hadn't run in to a bad strain. I'm sure you have seen all sorts of nasty ones working at an LFS.All that is why Tank Transfer method is my favorite way to treat for ick. It doesn't use meds unless your combining other treatments with it like Prazipro. I've seen many instances where ick wasn't taken care of with hypo and that's because there are several strains that are resistant. Also, I keep hundreds of fish in copper at the LFS I work at and rarely have a problem with them not eating, but I use CopperSafe which is a chelated copper and much easier on the fish than Cuppramine. That's just my experience with it and I know there are fish that are sensitive to copper and I dont keep them in the copper system. Just my 2 cents
Do you use vinegar or bleach to clean the tank? Which one is easier and effective?
Lionfish Lair
Renee
Can you imagine how I was scratching my head at the time?
First, I think water should has some bacteria either freshwater or saltwater. I may wrong but that is I read, research, asking friend who is owner fish store.
Second, If I am in this issue I will put that small fish to the beach and let DT with fish less whatever I want without headache and save money for purchase new fishes.
In here, we may discuss with metal is good for him and convenience. I posted from other thread of my opinion and what I did in the past and help other friend when their fishes got ICH. I can copy and paste to here for you read it.
The story is this man setup quarantine tank to treat fish then fish die cause ammonia.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/my-first-quarantine-log.245650/
This is my opinion only.
First, you need setup QT and it has goes through complete cycles then you can pick any option below to treat your fishes. Most of fishes die while treatment is not because ICH. They are die because they cannot handle ammonia spike or nitrite spike. Besides that, you will spend extra money to buy those kind of Stability, ammonia alert, prime, Malachite green/Methylene blue, Furan-2 or Mitrofuracin Green powder…etc..
Once your Quarantine tank cycled then you don’t need to worry any else, just concentrate to treat your fishes. And here are options you can choose:
Option 1: Cupmarine or Cooper
Introduce your fishes to QT then follow direction of the treatment (30 days treatment). The different here is your quarantine tank had cycled so you and your fishes don’t need to deal ammonia or nitrite as new QT. I don’t need write everything down in here, the link in this forum will show how to treat cooper.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/treatment-options.247573/
Option 2: Hypo salinity
Low SG at Quarantine tank to treat your fish and same as I said above, you are not worry about ammonia or nitrite, just be sure your sg around 1.007 to 1.009 max (30 days treatment then increase sg). Please follow instruction from the link in this forum:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/treatment-options.247573/
Option 3: Transfer Tank metal (TTM)
At this metal, keep your QT had cycled run by itself without fishes. Looking for 2 big buckets, mix saltwater in QT with fresh saltwater in the bucket then introduce fishes in there with heater and power head and air pump. Refill fresh saltwater into quarantine tank for next batch. That is difference between me and the link show is I keep QT had pass cycled for the last, using QT saltwater for TTM.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/treatment-options.247573/
After you finished the treatment, you can put all your fishes in quarantine tank for other 2 months without any worry because the tank already went through the cycled. (Total 15 days treatment)
Option 4: This option I created by myself that is Hypo salinity and TTM combination
With this metal, I save a lot of mix salt by hypo and reduce half of treatment time of hypo salinity by TTM
I use saltwater from QT mix with RO/DI water in the big bucket to 1.007 ~ 1.009 with heater, powerhead and air pump then transfer fishes to other bucket every 3 days to 5 times. After the treatment finish, put those fishes to quarantine tank WITH SAME SG. 1.007 ~ 1.009 then slowly increase sg then wait to put back DT when it is ready.
With your Quarantine tank is cycled as I said above, your fishes will less stress and yourself too. You are not check ammonia, nitrite 3 times a day anymore, you don’t need buy some extra medicine not relate to illness and you can sleep well.
This is just my opinion, I am not arguing to anybody in here, I just want fish owner know you will have a lot of problems behind the scene when your quarantine tank doesn’t pass cycle yet and no one will help you right away as you expected. Your expensive fishes’ life cannot wait any longer. The different I offer to you other than people in here is your QUARANTINE TANK must go through cycle before any treatment come up.
Good luck for next time
You are on the right track but what I think you are confusing is that the bacteria is present in the water column which it is not. The bacteria grows on the rock and sand, or if available bio balls or pellets. That is the reason porous live rock is important because it gives more surface area for the bacteria to grow on. Hospital tanks will never be cycled, specifically a hypo one, it's just impossible because of the conditions it requires. Hypo tanks need to be bare, which means there is nowhere for the bacteria to colonize. Also hypo tanks drop PH real and the only way to stabilize it is by dosing it with calcium carbonate which is a PITA. I just change over 50% of the water every night and siphon the bottom.
ritter6788
Coral Fraud Private Eye
joshkirkland83
Valuable Member
I know some people need to quit worrying about setting up a Q T and worry about getting "hooked on phonics". The struggle was real trying to understand this thread.
rayn
Bluefin Believer
@Humblefish will have a better answer for you on this.
I understand it to all have to do with the life cycle of the ich tomont. From egg, to searching for a host, to dying.
Please read other advice and how do you think quarantine tank never be cycled.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2195588
How to Setup a Quarantine Tank?
This is a question that has been asked and brought up several times. This are lots of ways to do things in this hobby but not all ways are correct or proper or failsafe.
In my years of experience I have learned a few methods that work the best.
I will try to explain my findings and experiences for one's that are seeking knowledge for a great QT system.
First, lets get the equipment out of the way no matter what method you use list of basic hardware will remain consistent.
You don't need to go all out here. A simple tank size of 10 - 20 gallons will suffice for most people. If you have larger fish, then obviously you want to get a bigger quarantine tank. All you really need is a bare bones setup with the following equipment:
1. Some type of filtration (a hang on the back of the tank power filter will work, just use filter floss without the carbon since carbon will remove medication from the water, being counter productive)
2. Heater
3. A power head and/or an air stone for increased surface agitation
4. Aquarium test kits for pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate
5. Fish Net - don't use the same net for your main tank
There are 2 of my personal favorite methods that I adopt.
Permanent QT or Emergency QT.
Permanent QT:
This type of setup will require a tank that is permanently running 24/7 awaiting temporary residents when needed. Cost of running such a system is high, but if money is not a problem I recommend this type of setup.
I personally run it myself.
I have a 36gal tank with above mentioned hardware along with an addition of ATO and chiller. My main tank is in-wall tank with back end in the garage. So my QT is also setup in garage thus requiring a need of chiller and ATO.
Every setup will have its own requirements and thus an owner needs to accommodate such needs and wants.
Once all hardware is in place I fill it with new salt water (1.026) and throw in a frozen shrimp to start cycle. Tank is bare bottom with a HOB bio wheeled filter. Let the tank cycle just like a normal tank over few weeks. Keep checking ammonia and nitrites and once zero your tank is cycled and ready to go.
After ammonia and nitrites hit zero do water change 30%. and keep up with regular water changes to prevent nitrates and phos to build.
Remember nothing from this setup ever can be used in your main tank ever if u use copper. so be ready to compromise the heater, chiller, filters, tank etc.
Use this tank as u need it for fish to observe or to treat.
Once setup properly this tank will not require much except ATO or regular replacement of evaporated water wit RO/DI water or a weekly water change.
Emergency QT.
This type of tank is quite favorite among reefers. This does not require a setup that is up and running 24/7. List of hardware is same.
In case you feel a need for a QT, just put together all the equipment and put water from your main tank in it and you are good to go.
Keep an eye on ammonia and nitrites and do water changes as needed.
This method will require relatively more water changes that permanent method as bacterial colonies are not established and thus require a little bit more attention from owner to maintain perfect chemistry.
There are few ways to shorten/cut the attention requirement in this process by adding chemicals like ammonolock or amquel that binds ammonia from being toxic to fish.
Another popular way to seed the tank is to keep extra filters in your main tank's sump and keep them seeded this way and when required pull them and use them in QT.
Just remember if copper is used in QT, those filters cannot go back to sump once QT is taken offline.
I hope reefers will find this informative and useful in order to setup their systems. If there are errors or problems with something stated please correct me as I am just human and can make mistake.
If there are questions concerns comments please feel free to post and share your wisdom together with everyone seeking.
Happy Reefing
Mike
NOTE: Patience is the key to success in life and in reefing.
joshkirkland83
Valuable Member
I've NEVER cycled a Q T tank in 13 years. Never had one fish die of ammonia poisoning. I have a purple tang in Q T right now. I set it up when I need it and break it down when I'm done. I could care less about articles, i base my facts off of experience.
joshkirkland83
Valuable Member
I understand some of you are really good and can adjust everything if something wrong come up BUT other new hobbies are not same like you. You should show them the SAFE SIDE way. Do not go short cut then "Sorry for your lost".
joshkirkland83
Valuable Member
No you are just making it WAY harder than what it is. Keep a piece of filter floss in your sump, add to Q T when setting up. Monitor ammonia, it really is that simple.
4FordFamily
Tang, Angel, and Wrasse Nerd!
I had the same thing but I suspect mine was velvet. It took over WHILE in hypo at 1.008. Hit hard and fast.
McMullen
Valuable Member
@ikegolani, just for clarification, bacteria is most certainly present in the water column! Advanced aquarist had a really nice paper on this that you can still easily search and find. I can't remember the exact numbers but I'm thinking it was around 20% of denitrifying bacteria was water column! I see post very frequently stating its only on rocks, sand, etc!
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