If phosphates are the base cause of all invasion issues, why cant I generate _____ by adding P?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If we searched for threads returned by "I have zero phosphates and still have algae" we see good examples of how a seemingly never ending food supply is assumed to be at play, opposing methods may fix their algae better, I just thought it was worthy compare and contrast.
.

You read that, but most of the time it isn't because reducing phosphate wouldn't help them. It is because their kits don't read low enough and/or the algae is sucking up the phosphate so effectively that it keeps the values low.

BUT, it is still most often the case in such a scenario that exporting more phosphate helps. If we are talking about green hair algae (as is most often the case), reducing phosphate will generally work, regardless of a kit reading.

So don't lump effects on special cases like bryopsis with ordinary green hair algae. Suggesting people try to kill green hair algae with special chemicals will likely do more harm than good, IMO.

 

[brandon429]

Not in our 300 pages but I realize may take 1000 to become 1/10th accepted. we get as long cures as constantly refreshing gfo gets. ..I was going to wait till at least page 2 to voice the real controversial stuff lol

 

[sawdonkey]

You keep mentioning that "direct kill" is overlooked and people just go right to the nutrient control remedy. Kent M was listed as a "direct kill" method for bryopsis, but what are some other "direct kill" methods for other algae problems?

The reason I go straight to PO4 control is that I don't know other options and PO4 control works. It seems that you're hinting that something else exists and I'd love to know what that is?

 

[brandon429]

sent you a link.

You might never need anything above what you are using agreed, each tank has unique variables and cheat requirements vary based on invader. Hope you never need one, with good QT I think you won't

The link I sent ya shows us working on gha tanks but the gelidium and other challenging invasions like dinos and invasive macros were the real source of stress, till we fixed it up.

I'm sending peroxide links, I'm biased lol. its simply fun to save a tank right before the keeper was going to give up, or head things off at the pass before hand. I assure anyone the day gfo or export or refugiums work as well, this method will die off and one of the three acceptable methods everyone loves will take over and persist.

ats and refugia do have that kind of history, but in working with Nanos much of the time those additions weren't wanted, just a clean tank that broke traditional reef rules to get there.

The only reason these people did peroxide was based on the steamroller results and this was one of several threads, they simply want results.

its very easy to refute results claimed in targeting threads...all one needs to do is choose an alternate way and post a few 60 pagers of that single method working against the big list in the first post. make one mistake with someone's tank online and it will never be lived down, peroxide lives up to the test well, its my implement of choice and I know good nutrient controls are a core plan of any successful tank. my own tank gets multiple 100% wchnages often, I believe in export but gelidium doesnt.

each method has strengths and weaknesses and we should be using whatever is right for our tanks, no method is best. accurate grazer matching is best imo, and everyone who hasn't attained that for whatever reason can consider a biocheat like peroxide, gfo etc.


We can chat about gha tonite- I'm expecting a thorough wringing for typing that we control gha quite well w only targeted efforts.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Is there is a reason you cannot simply post what you think works without emailing massive long threads to people?

 

[brandon429]

only because its searchable w two key words and a click, didnt think I was holding anyone back. curious to see what they think of what I sent, I'm not sure giant peroxide threads are a make or break post for this thread its just a summary of my experience on algae battles.

w post them later if needed, if we cant progress without them.

regarding the GHA this is how my angle of attack unfolded:

I'm scuba diving off cayman brac in the 90s, in waters not polluted by farm runoff going off quality of the reef, and see some algae that looks like hair algae intertwined with macro in places. tangs are nipping at it in droves. I didnt have a hana phosphate checker on me... so to start my rationale I have to ask, did that mean the waters had a po4 problem? if yes, we might can still find locations considered oligotrophic that still support grazers by the ton and consider phosphate species details listed by researchers or whoever would relate the measures to the reef. I'm thinking we can find a .02-.01 spot that still grows gha.

starting out by considering whether or not in nature po4 starving or grazing is the primary locus of control, and if the appearance of primary producers always indicates po4 problems via Pi or Po or any combination where grazers are supported only because nutrients are too high.

 

[sawdonkey]

I got your link and I skimmed it. I'm just not sure what point you're making or even what question you're asking? Or are you asking a question you already know the answer to and then just hinting at the answers? You ask if po4 is the cause of invasion issues. Then you link to articles about directly applying peroxide to algae. That is a solution, not a cause.

Are you simply stating that we shouldn't worry about limiting po4 because we can just kill algae directly through removal or other means?

I'm gonna go ahead and tap out on this one.

 

[brandon429]

I too wouldnt want to read 60 pages unless i had a genuine interest for discourse

this should help future skimming and quick discounts:
http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/2687...nk-with-pics-to-prove-it/page-59#entry5027035

Its really easy to write off instances we cured entire tanks of caulerpa invasions as a solution not a cause... expecting that no prob.


*We need to provide those people with a valid alt if mine was a mere bandaid fix, they want results, everybody has a better way...but you don't see a lot of 60 page threads backing up claims.



The rarest thing I see is someone inputting their own large threads using their way w same results while critiquing my shown method, what is not in short supply is debating my method having no links of counter work in aquariums done, with the follow up we show.

the reason that matters is because po4 control doesn't always work and its simply safer not to test ones claims in sixty page threads, a safe zone for critique, so the claim that all algae problems are po4 problems remains a key tenet in the hobby that I claim is short changing easy tank fixes.

Lack of grazers and qt is the true cause of most tank issues

awaiting input on the nature of gha and grazers and po4. If there are any waters where pure nutrient readings still grow gha, the excess po4 theory is shot. A possible valid search might be 'algae growth mechanisms in oligotrophic waters'

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Instead of forcing us to go to other forums, can you summarize in a couple of sentences how you eliminated Caulerpa, and which species?

I eliminated a bad infestation of Caulerpa racemosa from my tank (despite adding more of it weekly from my refugium to feed my fish) by adding a One Spot Foxface (Siganus unimaculatus). It loves to eat it. So does my yellow tang, but not enough to eliminate it.

See, it isn't hard to do in a single sentence.

 

[brandon429]

first not providing links wasnt good enough I mentioned we had been doing this 5 yrs and my date here is a few mos...i wasnt sure how mentioning threads as the proof would have been anything other than a counter link..


R2R is excellent at open info sharing and NR are fine partners for info. Im starting one here too, they just take time. I knew it would be made into another distraction when posted but it was time. imagine if i was adv them to put foxface in their nanos...we are looking for other sustained kill options, things many assume cant be done without po4 targeting.

The reason Im moving from bry to gelidium to caulerpa is Im working down the initial list and relating it to where I did verifiable work, this is one of about 5 threads similar size. I have repeating patterns that I can remark upon is the point, a different perspective than the common ones surrounding po4 is the entire point/

can you clarify my algae question above about the natural reefs

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

first not providing links wasnt good enough I mentioned we had been doing this 5 yrs and my date here is a few mos...R2R is excellent at open info sharing and NR are fine partners for info. Im starting one here too, they just take time.

The reason Im moving from bry to gelidium to caulerpa is Im working down the initial list and relating it to where I did verifiable work, this is one of about 5 threads similar size. I have repeating patterns that I can remark upon is the point, a different perspective than the common ones surrounding po4

can you clarify my algae question above pls

I never asked for links. I asked what you are talking about, and for you to present it here rather than in emails.

What algae question do you want clarified?

 

[jolt]

I agree with Randy -- I'm actually trying to follow the basic idea/hypothesis that is being presented. It's hard so far. What would be more effective for me would be a concise position statement. It's hard to get people on board if they have to work too hard to follow the line of reasoning. Structured, thoughtful, and sound arguments have won people over to many controversial ideas in history. Once there is understanding of that then maybe people will chase citations.

 

[brandon429]

Jolt, its ok if my writing style is poor just check the links and search the others for an idea, there's no way of being any more concise than my opening subject line. Another way to gain great input is to make some threads of you fixing tanks and we can review


In spite of poor writing lol we keep saving tanks because they dont have lots of 60 page proof threads to reference. What the masses do have is tons and tons of statements about how po4 is always the cause, if you are missing it here, its in a bound state there, always the causative, a chase that is round and round for many and we wanted to stop that and get consistent results.

The links show consistent prediction and positive outcome for controlling most invaders independent of po4 <--Ill bold this sentence next time Im re asked to clarify my stance.



Im just glad we operate in a free exchange forum R2R to pose challenges and run tough discussions.



Randy my question was

Are there any oligotrophic natural reef settings, not confounded by farm runoff or excessive nutrient levels, that still grow GHA if we simply remove the grazers? I saw some action like this in cayman brac, there's no farms there it was pristine and algae was there too supporting tons of grazing. I wanted to know how much po4 vs grazers controls algae on an ideal po4 level natural reef, not one we can pin on farm runoff.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Both phosphate, nitrogen, and grazing control algae growth on natural reefs, depending on the species and location. While and N and P cannot usually both control algae at the same time, either one can combine with grazing control.

There are lots of articles on this topic.

Here's a published PDF showing which macroalgae species are nitrogen limited, which are phosphate limited in Hawaii as well as in a variety of previous studies. There are some of each. In their Hawaii, there are more N than P limited macroalgae.

http://web.archive.org/web/20040720...482/Kaneohe Bay algae N-P Larned Mar Biol.pdf

 

[brandon429]

That was very helpful after reading, at lunch didn't have time to highlight some sections yet but the discussion part near the end is a key one. The part about broad generalizations being made about nutrient limitations and how that may not apply to natural fluxes found in nature.

offhand this seems to show in a lab setting what the least amnt of n or p will sustain a given macro and how macros have amazing ways of harvesting nutrients and storing them in nature--an extrapolation limitation for the article.


I'll read more sec to find where on Hawaiian reefs removing grazers will still allow for n and p restriction to prevent eutrophication, that's what kind of example im seeking

we started our p threads with the premise that it doesn't do lots of good to chase for bottom end nutrient numbers for all invaders as a broad approach since we see so many tanks with problems who were already within acceptable n and p ranges before simply a lazy import. including gha

Minor nutrient variances are mentioned earlier as unconnected at the core to most of our invasion issues and we are striving to prove or disprove that in our action threads.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Just reading their introduction makes a clear point:

"Shifts from coral to algal domination of coral reefs have become common in tropical coastal regions, and the identification and control of nutrients which enhance algal productivity has become a priority for reef management. In the majority of cases, nitrogen and phosphorus limit productivity, although iron limitation has also been detected."

 

[jolt]

The paper below was just presented at a hobbyist conference in Austin. The author suggests that dominant algae causes a change in the microbial population which is detrimental to coral growth. Even worse, this change causes a positive feedback loop in the ecosystem that further increases the growth of algae. Dr Haas suggested that how nutrients get used and whether the system as a whole is autotrophic or heterotrophic seems to have a big effect. My understanding is its tied to the available dissolved oxygen and dissolved organic carbon and how they get metabolized by the ecosystem as a whole. Anyway, it makes me think that the key is not just in controlling nutrients, but in making sure that the overall system does not fall into this positive feedback spiral. The supporting data are a little over my head but he summarized well.

Perhaps the treatments in question attack that cycle directly by attacking the microbes?

Note that I'm not taking a position on this, I just thought it was apropos to the discussion. Apologies if this is a tangent ...

https://peerj.com/articles/108/

 

[brandon429]

Thats excellent input Im open to it all~

Thats in fact great its so hard to follow details I'll need to read twice lol
new word I'm googling, copiotrophic-nice

 

[brandon429]

the big key question for both links: how big of a thread can one generate, and where is it, applying those principles for those who have genuine trouble making it work?

You guys are offering excellent irrefutable links to offset theory vs theory

Another way to look at that p thread:

Im here because I showed up having tried the typical options, my po4 seems ok, and I dont want to lose my tank.

If linking those people these studies w fix em, sans oxidizer blasting, we really should be using those links. Someone needs to guide us through the process and show how that worked in the ranging variability world of other peoples tanks and habits.

Correcting our own tanks vs others right and left is very different tests of a method.

Making a thread where someone demonstrates how to consistently get results for the masses using nutrient cures would certainly start to drop participation for peroxide users.


In the meantime,
http://reef2reef.com/threads/id-request-red-plants-and-spikey-plant.205051/

A prediction is made before the treatment was started by first time applicant having never used a targeted kill as the sole means of eradication. Let's track this one.

Tracking result, fixed July 2015.

Next up, august 2015 green hair algae running independently of ardent phosphate controls he mentions on a prior tank. To reverse eutrophication, we are target working with peroxide and not inquiring about po4, I'm linking this before we get his follow up like the red algae tank above, we make date predictions that pure po4 controls cannot:
http://reef2reef.com/threads/peroxide-use-for-killing-green-hair-algae.209144/


an overdose thread here in the Chem forum

watch the video review of peroxide
http://reef2reef.com/threads/what-is-the-half-life-of-hydrogen-peroxide.211134/#post-2416965



http://reef2reef.com/threads/sick-of-gha-going-to-start-dosing-perxoide.212043/page-3#post-2463793

That above is ye olde grand slamme home run. That tank had me a little scared heh thats prob $2k in pastel sps and an unfairly high expectation outcome. Any other method saves the tank and RTN's a few corals would be deemed worth it. Do that with peroxide, res publica drums you right out lol. Our expectation is single run fix of a six month eutrophication setup with no loss and within a three week timeframe. If the bar needs to be set higher I w need a ladder.