Potassium Hydroxide Dosing??

[Shooter6]

I really need to respond strongly here. No offense intended to you, but IMO is is a serious mistake to dose potassium hydroxide to boost pH long term, and I do not want anyone going away from this thread without at least hearing me say that, even if they still want to try it. It is a seriously flawed method that risks rapidly escalating potassium, and there are far better methods that do not risk that concern..

I really do not understand how potassium ever got fingered for this use, unless the "inventor" was just unaware of better options (sodium hydroxide).

Yes, calcium hydroxide is almost balanced and is a good choice that I used for 20 years.

Sodium hydroxide used with a DIY Balling type two part is also balanced and is also a very good choice. Way, way better than potassium. Even without the Balling part C, it is better than potassium.

Potassium hydroxide at levels sufficient to significantly move the pH needle IS NOT EVER appropriate long term, and there's no way to make it OK (IMO). I do not believe coral uptake can match the amount needed. And if you dose much less, you get a pH effect too small to be useful.

Why do you suppose NO commercial reef alk supplements are potassium bicarbonate or potassium carbonate? Same exact problem that everyone already understands. But somehow if we go to hydroxide as the alk additive, potassium becomes OK? Not.

let's look:

Let's suppose we add 1 dKH per day for a year. That's 0.36 meq/L per day or 130 milliequivalents per L per year.

If we add that as NaOH or KOH, then we must be adding 130 meq/L per year

How much Na+ (mw = 23 mg/milliequivalent) and K+ (mw = 39 mg/milliequivalent) is that?

130 meq/L is

Na+ ---> 23 x 130 = 2,990 mg/L
K+ ---> 39 x 130 = 5,070 mg/L

So potassium has risen from 400 mg/l to 5,470 mg/L a 1,468% increase.
Sodium has risen from 10,800 to 13,790 mg/L a 26% increase

Thus, the rise in potassium is HUGE and the rise in sodium is not. Of course, both are impacted and reduced similarly by salinity corrections and water changes, but the overall effect is that the potassium rise can still be very large (because more mass is added and the starting concentration is far lower) and the sodium rise is not.

Ok here is the best I can do to respond as A , I have no experience with the potassium hydroxide dosing and B, I'm not a chemist and I've not run any experiments on the reaction to reef chemistry with it.

From my understanding though is he is using a diluted form of potassium hydroxide, AND super diluting it. Then he is only dosing a few MLS per day, to 2000g fully stocked reefs, so uptake may or may not be sufficient to control any increase in potassium.

Have you watched the video where he described the dosing and the rough explanation of dilution required? He touched on the possibilities of potassium overdosing as well as alkalinity and ph issues. He specifically says he DOES NOT RECOMMEND dosing it on most people's reefs. I think that last part is being highly overlooked and instead people are acting as if he is advocating for its use.

Personally I am most interested in the science of what the dose really is, the dilution factor and the results from it.

Is there a known overdose level of potassium for fish ND coral? Does waterchanges and coral uptake keep it below that level?
These are what interest me in this discussion.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ok here is the best I can do to respond as A , I have no experience with the potassium hydroxide dosing and B, I'm not a chemist and I've not run any experiments on the reaction to reef chemistry with it.

From my understanding though is he is using a diluted form of potassium hydroxide, AND super diluting it. Then he is only dosing a few MLS per day, to 2000g fully stocked reefs, so uptake may or may not be sufficient to control any increase in potassium.

Have you watched the video where he described the dosing and the rough explanation of dilution required? He touched on the possibilities of potassium overdosing as well as alkalinity and ph issues. He specifically says he DOES NOT RECOMMEND dosing it on most people's reefs. I think that last part is being highly overlooked and instead people are acting as if he is advocating for its use.

Personally I am most interested in the science of what the dose really is, the dilution factor and the results from it.

Is there a known overdose level of potassium for fish ND coral? Does waterchanges and coral uptake keep it below that level?
These are what interest me in this discussion.

If you add a small enough amount (regardless of dilution) it has no significant pH effect. It’s an ok potassium supplement if you need a small amount of potassium every day and no pH effect.

The calculation above is for 1 dKH per day, which if all added at once, the pH boost us about 0.5 pH units. Adding one tenth that will give a pH boost of about 0.05 pH units if added all at once, and a far lower amount if spread out or later in the day from when you dosed.

But that low dose will still raise potassium by 1.4 ppm per day. That would certainly be way too much in my tank, but maybe not in some scenarios.

I still see no reason to do this when better options exist.

 

[Shooter6]

If you add a small enough amount (regardless of dilution) it has no significant pH effect. It’s an ok potassium supplement if you need a small amount of potassium every day and no pH effect.

The calculation above is for 1 dKH per day, which if all added at once, the pH boost us about 0.5 pH units. Adding one tenth that will give a pH boost of about 0.05 pH units if added all at once, and a far lower amount if spread out or later in the day from when you dosed.

But that low dose will still raise potassium by 1.4 ppm per day. That would certainly be way too much in my tank, but maybe not in some scenarios.

I still see no reason to do this when better options exist.

0.05 increase in ph is still a considerable amount on most people's reefs especially when added to the increase from other sources such as kalk though right? I believe this is why it is only 1 of the layers of dosing he uses.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

0.05 increase in ph is still a considerable amount on most people's reefs especially when added to the increase from other sources such as kalk though right? I believe this is why it is only 1 of the layers of dosing he uses.

That is an instantaneous effect that will disappear in a very short time. Dosed over a day, I doubt you could detect it.

Many people dose 1-2 dKH worth and do not get to the pH they want, despite that having an instantaneous effect of up to a whole pH unit.

Instead of trying to argue about how one might possibly find a way to do this safely, the better question, IMO, is why do it at all?

I just see zero rationale for this.

 

[Shooter6]

That is an instantaneous effect that will disappear in a very short time. Dosed over a day, I doubt you could detect it.

Many people dose 1-2 dKH worth and do not get to the pH they want, despite that having an instantaneous effect of up to a whole pH unit.

Instead of trying to argue about how one might possibly find a way to do this safely, the better question, IMO, is why do it at all?

I just see zero rationale for this.

Who are these other people dosing potassium hydroxide? Dosing that much? I honestly have not seen anyone other the Chris doing this, and a few people who have followed his path. I'd love to hear those people chime in on the subject since they have real world experiences with the product.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Who are these other people dosing potassium hydroxide? Dosing that much? I honestly have not seen anyone other the Chris doing this, and a few people who have followed his path. I'd love to hear those people chime in on the subject since they have real world experiences with the product.

You misunderstand. I’m talking about dosing that much hydroxide, not potassium hydroxide. I’ve never heard of anyone else dosing large amounts of KOH, and for good reason.

I did it for 20 years as have countless others using kalkwasser, and now quite a few folks do it using my diy 2/3 part recipes using sodium hydroxide.

Hydroxide is hydroxide. It retains no memory of the solid it came from once dissolved, so the hydroxide effects are identical if dosed in the same amounts.

 

[Shooter6]

You misunderstand. I’m talking about dosing that much hydroxide, not potassium hydroxide. I’ve never heard of anyone else dosing large amounts of KOH, and for good reason.

I did it for 20 years as have countless others using kalkwasser, and now quite a few folks do it using my diy 2/3 part recipes using sodium hydroxide.

Hydroxide is hydroxide. It retains no memory of the solid it came from once dissolved, so the hydroxide effects are identical if dosed in the same amounts.

I understand the kalkwasser dosing as I have done so on and off since 1988. Tried the calcium reactors , and 3 part as well over the years. The potassium hydroxide addition is something I have not but it interests me. Is the source potassium hydroxide highly concentrated vs your sodium hydroxide? Is the ph boost different? Ect. I understand a hydroxide may be a hydroxide at the same hydroxide amount for the 2 chemicals, but that leaves a lot of unanswered questions. What's the difference in effect on ph when the 2 solutions are added to sw.
What is the concentration of the 2 solutions.
How much base chemical does it take to reach that solution.
There's a ton more I'm sure I'm not even close to addressing yet.

I understand you have your system that you advocate, and I completely respect that.
I understand the potassium hydroxide doesn't interests you.

I still am intrigued by it and can imagine it has some benefits for at least a small group of reefers.

There's many who find they are potassium deficient and have to dose it separately. I personally dont know what the overdose level is per gallon for a reef either, so I don't want anyone to think I am claiming to.

As a side note. Your sodium hydroxide dosing would not negatively be effected if a a small portion was off set with potassium hydroxide, for the added potassium would it? Then you would get the same dosing benefits of your system with the addition of potassium dosing instead of a separate potassium dosing via manual dosing it. Easier to spread it across small doses vs all at once. That shows a possible benefit right there...

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I understand the kalkwasser dosing as I have done so on and off since 1988. Tried the calcium reactors , and 3 part as well over the years. The potassium hydroxide addition is something I have not but it interests me. Is the source potassium hydroxide highly concentrated vs your sodium hydroxide? Is the ph boost different? Ect. I understand a hydroxide may be a hydroxide at the same hydroxide amount for the 2 chemicals, but that leaves a lot of unanswered questions. What's the difference in effect on ph when the 2 solutions are added to sw.
What is the concentration of the 2 solutions.
How much base chemical does it take to reach that solution.
There's a ton more I'm sure I'm not even close to addressing yet.

I understand you have your system that you advocate, and I completely respect that.
I understand the potassium hydroxide doesn't interests you.

I still am intrigued by it and can imagine it has some benefits for at least a small group of reefers.

There's many who find they are potassium deficient and have to dose it separately. I personally dont know what the overdose level is per gallon for a reef either, so I don't want anyone to think I am claiming to.

As a side note. Your sodium hydroxide dosing would not negatively be effected if a a small portion was off set with potassium hydroxide, for the added potassium would it? Then you would get the same dosing benefits of your system with the addition of potassium dosing instead of a separate potassium dosing via manual dosing it. Easier to spread it across small doses vs all at once. That shows a possible benefit right there...

This whole line of questioning assumes there is some big benefit of potassium hydroxide that we just need to uncover. Not true. Do you think the chemists looking for great ways to dose aquaria (or make money as companies) just didn’t know about it? No, 40 years of expert chemists and companies knew it wasn’t useful. Those suggesting otherwise are behind the curve, not ahead of it.

There is no fixed concentration to sodium or potassium hydroxide. Both can be made as strong or as weak as you want.

The pH boost is exactly identical for all types of hydroxide additives, per unit of alk added, as long as you add them in similar time periods.

I don’t advocate for any particular system, and to suggest I do is grossly incorrect. Every method has pros and cons, and I recommend many of them. But potassium hydroxide dosing does not make the cut.

Balling part C is the best offset of sodium dosing. Potassium alone is not. Is a tiny bit of potassium useful when dosing sodium? Yes, but the amount needed is 3.7% of the sodium dosed, which is not enough to be useful for pH.

 

[Shooter6]

This whole line of questioning assumes there is some big benefit of potassium hydroxide that we just need to uncover. Not true. Do you think the chemists looking for great ways to dose aquaria (or make money as companies) just didn’t know about it? No, 40 years of expert chemists and companies knew it wasn’t useful. Those suggesting otherwise are behind the curve, not ahead of it.

There is no fixed concentration to sodium or potassium hydroxide. Both can be made as strong or as weak as you want.

The pH boost is exactly identical for all types of hydroxide additives, per unit of alk added, as long as you add them in similar time periods.

I don’t advocate for any particular system, and to suggest I do is grossly incorrect. Every method has pros and cons, and I recommend many of them. But potassium hydroxide dosing does not make the cut.

Balling part C is the best offset of sodium dosing. Potassium alone is not. Is a tiny bit of potassium useful when dosing sodium? Yes, but the amount needed is 3.7% of the sodium dosed, which is not enough to be useful for pH.

I'm sorry if I struck a nerve with you, but you do advocate a particular method. You do so every time you mention your diy sodium hydroxide method. Maybe you didn't realize it but you do. You have mentioned your method in this thread alone probably more times then we can count on our fingers.

No as far as concentration mixed yes I know it all depends on what it's mixed to. I think you misunderstood what I was saying with that. I was talking about base product. I suppose it would be purity/concentration ect. Example a teaspoon of different concentrations/purity of a product can have various results desolved into the same exact measurement of water right.

Hopefully this makes sense as I am probably not explaining it in the best way.

Example you buy kalk from 2 different companies. 1 may mix up to 12.2 dkh while the other 12.45 dkh with the same exact water amount, exact material measurements in the same room same time with the same equipment ect. That slight difference is measurable in pH.

 

[Shooter6]

This whole line of questioning assumes there is some big benefit of potassium hydroxide that we just need to uncover. Not true. Do you think the chemists looking for great ways to dose aquaria (or make money as companies) just didn’t know about it? No, 40 years of expert chemists and companies knew it wasn’t useful. Those suggesting otherwise are behind the curve, not ahead of it.

There is no fixed concentration to sodium or potassium hydroxide. Both can be made as strong or as weak as you want.

The pH boost is exactly identical for all types of hydroxide additives, per unit of alk added, as long as you add them in similar time periods.

I don’t advocate for any particular system, and to suggest I do is grossly incorrect. Every method has pros and cons, and I recommend many of them. But potassium hydroxide dosing does not make the cut.

Balling part C is the best offset of sodium dosing. Potassium alone is not. Is a tiny bit of potassium useful when dosing sodium? Yes, but the amount needed is 3.7% of the sodium dosed, which is not enough to be useful for pH.

Additionally. Your system the sodium hydroxide is a primary dosing system correct?
That is how I understand it.

You do realize the potassium hydroxide is NOT a primary dosing system. It is a SUPPLEMENTAL to another system. Say a calcium reactor, to help offset ph suppression. That is what I understand from everything I've seen in the conversations he has had about it.

He runs a calcium reactor, kalkwasser, AND doses potassium hydroxide on top of those all on the same system.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm sorry if I struck a nerve with you, but you do advocate a particular method. You do so every time you mention your diy sodium hydroxide method. Maybe you didn't realize it but you do. You have mentioned your method in this thread alone probably more times then we can count on our fingers.

No as far as concentration mixed yes I know it all depends on what it's mixed to. I think you misunderstood what I was saying with that. I was talking about base product. I suppose it would be purity/concentration ect. Example a teaspoon of different concentrations/purity of a product can have various results desolved into the same exact measurement of water right.

Hopefully this makes sense as I am probably not explaining it in the best way.

Example you buy kalk from 2 different companies. 1 may mix up to 12.2 dkh while the other 12.45 dkh with the same exact water amount, exact material measurements in the same room same time with the same equipment ect. That slight difference is measurable in pH.

Of course I mention it in the context of raising pH in this thread because it and kalkwasser gave the highest pH boost per unit of alk added, without distorting the chemistry of the tank.

But I do not advocate that it is better than other calcium and alk methods if raising pH the most possible is not part of the goal. Perhaps you have missed my frequent recommendations for ESV B-ionic, for example.

I am an unbiased recommender of what will work and what won’t work given the objectives of the reefer involved.

 

[Shooter6]

Of course I mention it in the context of raising pH in this thread because it and kalkwasser gave the highest pH boost per unit of alk added, without distorting the chemistry of the tank.

But I do not advocate that it is better than other calcium and alk methods if raising pH the most possible is not part of the goal. Perhaps you have missed my frequent recommendations for ESV B-ionic, for example.

I am an unbiased recommender of what will work and what won’t work given the objectives of the reefer involved.

Actually you have recommended your sodium hydroxide method over other systems in other threads as well. An example is a couple of the tm all for reef threads. . Maybe you didn't realize it but you have. It's understandable as it's your preferred method. I don't think it's fair to claim to be impartial though when you are advocating it's use over others. In most oth the threads you go as far as to link your right up on your diy recipe. Not just in this one but the afr ones as well.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You do realize the potassium hydroxide is NOT a primary dosing system. It is a SUPPLEMENTAL to another system.

Yes. It is not ever the best way to solve a low pH issue.

If you add enough to make a substantial pH boost, potassium will rise. If you add so little that potassium rise is not excessive, then the pH boost is insignificant.

There are better way to solve both problems, and you should not be convinced that someone can skirt the laws of chemistry because the make videos.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Actually you have recommended your sodium hydroxide method over other systems in other threads as well. An example is a couple of the tm all for reef threads. . Maybe you didn't realize it but you have. It's understandable as it's your preferred method. I don't think it's fair to claim to be impartial though when you are advocating it's use over others. In most oth the threads you go as far as to link your right up on your diy recipe. Not just in this one but the afr ones as well.

I’m sorry that you have misunderstood, but I am a totally impartial advisor on chemical issues.

Of course the best methods for a given problem will be recommended every time. The chemistry of what works and what doesn’t never changes.

That absolutely does not mean I think a hydroxide method of any sort is always best. I would not recommend it at all to a starting reefer or to someone who did not have a significant low pH issue that was not readily solved other ways.

 

[Shooter6]

Yes. It is not ever the best way to solve a low pH issue.

If you add enough to make a substantial pH boost, potassium will rise. If you add so little that potassium rise is not excessive, then the pH boost is insignificant.

There are better way to solve both problems, and you should not be convinced that someone can skirt the laws of chemistry because the make videos.

I am not convinced by someone who makes videos, instead I am intrigued and trying to learn more about it in actual use. Where consumption ect comes into play. I understand your speaking about the chemistry, but not implementation .

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I am not convinced by someone who makes videos, instead I am intrigued and trying to learn more about it in actual use. Where consumption ect comes into play. I understand your speaking about the chemistry, but not implementation .

If the goal is higher pH and a normal potassium level, other folks have achieved this for many years in other ways, so there is no magic here that is impacting corals in new way, even if one thinks potassium hydroxide can accomplish those. I accomplished it in my tank using just kalkwasser. Others have also done so with with other methods.

I’m more than happy to advise on implementation and believe I have done so in a science based way, showing the actual effects one can achieve numerically. I’m happy to provide that info for any scenario you want.

 

[Shooter6]

I’m sorry that you have misunderstood, but I am a totally impartial advisor on chemical issues.

Of course the best methods for a given problem will be recommended every time. The chemistry of what works and what doesn’t never changes.

That absolutely does not mean I think a hydroxide method of any sort is always best. I would not recommend it at all to a starting reefer or to someone who did not have a significant low pH issue that was not readily solved other ways.

You have recommended it over other systems though, usually focusing on the cost vs other options. That is what you were doing in the all for reef thread. You said you didn't sew any benefit to it including cost as your system is so much cheaper to do.

Only mention of pH in that thread was from you. As you said afr has to have negative impact on pH due to chemistry.

I really would prefer talking about the potassium hydroxide, both negative and positive, along with here details about its actual implementation and results from that implementation.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You have recommended it over other systems though, usually focusing on the cost vs other options. That is what you were doing in the all for reef thread. You said you didn't sew any benefit to it including cost as your system is so much cheaper to do.

Only mention of pH in that thread was from you. As you said afr has to have negative impact on pH due to chemistry.

I really would prefer talking about the potassium hydroxide, both negative and positive, along with here details about its actual implementation and results from that implementation.

My DIY that I typically recommend as a cost saving DIY (that I specifically say is not as good as ESV B-ionic unless one uses Balling Part C) is not hydroxide based. It starts with baking soda. Perhaps that is what you are thinking of?

 

[Shooter6]

My DIY that I typically recommend as a cost saving DIY (that I specifically say is not as good as ESV B-ionic unless one uses Balling Part C) is not hydroxide based. It starts with baking soda. Perhaps that is what you are thinking of?

Perhaps. I won't argue that as I'm not sure. I do know on the all for reef thread where you and I discussed it and one of your negatives on all for reef was it has to suppress pH, you posted a link to a diy method written by you. In that thread you said you see no benefit to afr in comparison to your method and yours was cheaper as well.

That is the thread that I said the best comparison I can make to the afr method is a liquid form of calcium reactor. Or I suppose a bottled concentrated effluent to be dosed vs a calcium reactor, co2 ph probe monitor,doser pump ect ect. I hope that brings that thread back to memory.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Perhaps. I won't argue that as I'm not sure. I do know on the all for reef thread where you and I discussed it and one of your negatives on all for reef was it has to suppress pH, you posted a link to a diy method written by you. In that thread you said you see no benefit to afr in comparison to your method and yours was cheaper as well.

That is the thread that I said the best comparison I can make to the afr method is a liquid form of calcium reactor. Or I suppose a bottled concentrated effluent to be dosed vs a calcium reactor, co2 ph probe monitor,doser pump ect ect. I hope that brings that thread back to memory.

Any time I say diy two part (like the links below) it is not either of the posted sodium hydroxide two part systems. These other recipes use either baking soda or sodium carbonate (BRS uses that recipe).

Ifam referring to a hydroxide recipe, I call those ultra high pH two part formulations

All for reef comb with other 2 part

Hello everyone As the title says can i combine all for reef with other 2 part method? I'm currently using a high ph boost 3 part solution but it's getting expensive and looking for alternatives. Regards

www.reef2reef.com

All for reef comb with other 2 part

Hello everyone As the title says can i combine all for reef with other 2 part method? I'm currently using a high ph boost 3 part solution but it's getting expensive and looking for alternatives. Regards

www.reef2reef.com

Here’s a post from 2 months ago where I call out two commercial brands (ESV and TM):

Anyone Using Live Aquaria Two Part Cal/Alk?

Wondering if anyone is using the two part from Live Aquaria? And what might the mixing instructions be? Maybe they are identical to BRS? Thanks

www.reef2reef.com