Red Sea Comparison of various methods for Nitrate and Phosphate Reduction Chart

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Did you receive a response from customer service?
Sorry, not trying to be an ****, but I am curious about a debate between you and them. I know you know more than I do, but the various tidbits I've found (and what I've seen) do not coincide with what you're stating. (as far as it being no different from a vv mixture)

I'm still waiting for Red Sea to clarify what they mean by the acronym VFA. I'll prompt them again.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So long story short we should be dosing vodka and vinegar?

I feel odd about adding chemicals to my tank. Can't I just run it with a skimmer and let everything be natural?

I would only dose either or both if you have a clear reason to do so. If you do not have an issue that you think they will help with, then I wouldn't recommend them. They have drawbacks and are not perfect. For example, you might possibly spur the growth of bacteria that are not desirable, and might be pathogenic to something in the tank (such as a coral). That is apparently pretty rare, but may happen.

I use vinegar for reasons of reducing nutrients (especially nitrate), supplying some organic matter to various organisms such as anemones, and and in driving bacterial growth that (hopefully) acts as a food sources for filter feeders such as sponges.

 

[Squid]

Edit: RHF posted basically what I was gonna say. Don't know how to delete my post?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Edit: RHF posted basically what I was gonna say. Don't know how to delete my post?

No problem, but posts usually remain unless they need to be removed for being offensive, etc. I have a number that just say "duplicate post"

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Since we're on the subject, and I've yet to find anything comparable.. What suggestions do you have Randy for preparation for an ICP? (going to use triton, already ordered a couple test kits)

In contemplating the comparison to find out if Red Sea is full of it or not (because 3ppm of "mystery compounds" leaves the door open to many interpretations aside from contaminants) I'm going to send in a test of each, the nopox, and the diy recipe. Unfortunately we won't be able to do a NMR of store vodka/vinegar, but at least we can do an ICP of each for comparison sake.

I'm tempted to dilute it as I don't know if Triton will still test it if it smells like it does, but at the same time I do not want to dilute it to the point of not detecting something.
Thoughts? (apologies as I've not sat down to write up possibilities, but I'm assuming between a NMR and an ICP we'll be able to see 99% of what's in each? I recall the NMR guy remarking nopox being pretty darn pure otherwise, can't say the same for store-bought vodka let alone cooking vinegar)

(this is where somebody is chanting "FOR SCIENCE!")

 

[Habib(Salifert)]

What is their detection limit for hertz (3 ppm hertz/hertz) ?



(Sorry, couldn't resist)

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

What is their detection limit for hertz (3 ppm hertz/hertz) ?
(Sorry, couldn't resist)

Good call, I'm no pro in either area, I probably never would have given detection limits a second thought on that test.. After I've come this far with my tank I try to have a ****-like scrutiny towards changes.. lol (I'm still curious about the extent of the biological interactions towards methanol additions; still trying to find time to research that)

A quick look yielded this, which I found interesting..
http://qa.nmrwiki.org/question/101/limit-testing-by-nmr

 

[TD13]

Good call, I'm no pro in either area, I probably never would have given detection limits a second thought on that test.. After I've come this far with my tank I try to have a ****-like scrutiny towards changes.. lol (I'm still curious about the extent of the biological interactions towards methanol additions; still trying to find time to research that)

A quick look yielded this, which I found interesting..
http://qa.nmrwiki.org/question/101/limit-testing-by-nmr

What is their detection limit for hertz (3 ppm hertz/hertz) ?



(Sorry, couldn't resist)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my EE background tells me that Hertz is measurement of electrical frequency....

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my EE background tells me that Hertz is measurement of electrical frequency....

(found this quick, I'm enjoying these reads, though it's on tools I'll never be able to afford )

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benchtop_nuclear_magnetic_resonance_spectrometer

 

[TD13]

Good call, I'm no pro in either area, I probably never would have given detection limits a second thought on that test.. After I've come this far with my tank I try to have a ****-like scrutiny towards changes.. lol (I'm still curious about the extent of the biological interactions towards methanol additions; still trying to find time to research that)

A quick look yielded this, which I found interesting..
http://qa.nmrwiki.org/question/101/limit-testing-by-nmr

(found this quick, I'm enjoying these reads, though it's on tools I'll never be able to afford )

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benchtop_nuclear_magnetic_resonance_spectrometer

That makes more sense...

 

[Habib(Salifert)]

What is their detection limit for hertz (3 ppm hertz/hertz) ?



(Sorry, couldn't resist)

That was sarcasm.

The "3 ppm" was explained by Randy, it is not 3 ppm of "some substance".

Kungpaoshizi, you should, IMHO, really reread the whole thread with a clear and open mind.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

That was sarcasm.

The "3 ppm" was explained by Randy, it is not 3 ppm of "some substance".

Kungpaoshizi, you should, IMHO, really reread the whole thread with a clear and open mind.

Well then..
Though in reading about detection limits, isn't that something else to consider? How does time impact accuracy as well? (not trying to be difficult, just trying to understand)
Also, what's the blip at 1.15?

This is one of the first comparisons I've seen that suggests there may indeed be more to it..
Again, not trying to be difficult, but if we're going to progress(or just myself heh), one direction or the other, we might as well learn what we can. (I think that's why most are here )

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Good call, I'm no pro in either area, I probably never would have given detection limits a second thought on that test.. After I've come this far with my tank I try to have a ****-like scrutiny towards changes.. lol (I'm still curious about the extent of the biological interactions towards methanol additions; still trying to find time to research that)

A quick look yielded this, which I found interesting..
http://qa.nmrwiki.org/question/101/limit-testing-by-nmr

I have to say I am totally lost why you are challenging the NMR itself.

I think you have some misunderstandings of NMR. I do not. I have personally taken hundreds of them.

NMR is not used for trace levels analysis, and it wasn't used in that way in the case of the NOPOX analysis. It is well suited to identification of compounds which are present in high concentrations, and that is what they did. You cannot detect 1 ppm of anything in any sort of normal proton NMR. It's peaks would be 10,000 times smaller than what was shown in the scan above, which will simply disappear into the baseline. That is just not its purpose.

So an NMR does not say anything about low level components, whether they are intended ingredients or impurities.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Also, what's the blip at 1.15?

That is ethanol. Ethanol has three closely related peaks at about 1 ppm. It is not a single sharp peak, but one peak split into three pieces (two small and one large in the middle). Without spending any undue time in this thread explaining how NMR works, here's a link where they explain the NMR of ethanol:

http://demonstrations.wolfram.com/NuclearMagneticResonanceSpectrumOfEthanol/

Bear in mind that peak shapes and exact positions change with the nature of the solvent, especially the OH NMR peak of a compounds like ethanol.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Since we're on the subject, and I've yet to find anything comparable.. What suggestions do you have Randy for preparation for an ICP? (going to use triton, already ordered a couple test kits)

In contemplating the comparison to find out if Red Sea is full of it or not (because 3ppm of "mystery compounds" leaves the door open to many interpretations aside from contaminants) I'm going to send in a test of each, the nopox, and the diy recipe. Unfortunately we won't be able to do a NMR of store vodka/vinegar, but at least we can do an ICP of each for comparison sake.

I'm tempted to dilute it as I don't know if Triton will still test it if it smells like it does, but at the same time I do not want to dilute it to the point of not detecting something.
Thoughts? (apologies as I've not sat down to write up possibilities, but I'm assuming between a NMR and an ICP we'll be able to see 99% of what's in each? I recall the NMR guy remarking nopox being pretty darn pure otherwise, can't say the same for store-bought vodka let alone cooking vinegar)

I think you'd have to talk to Triton. Normal water sample preparation for ICP involves acidification to prevent precipitation of metals.

When someone did that to a standard to test the Triton method accuracy, Triton was not pleased to get samples that they thought were seawater and so (they said) risked their operators (being so acidic).

Here's a sample prep:

http://water.epa.gov/scitech/methods/cwa/bioindicators/upload/2007_07_10_methods_method_200_8.pdf

"For the determination of dissolved analytes in ground and surface waters, pipet an aliquot (≥20 mL) of the filtered, acid preserved sample into a 50 mL polypropylene centrifuge tube. Add an appropriate volume of (1+1) nitric acid to adjust the acid concentration of the aliquot to approximate a 1% (v/v) nitric acid solution (e.g., add 0.4 mL (1+1) HNO3 to a 20 mL aliquot of sample). If the direct addition procedure (Method A, Section 10.3) is being used, add internal standards, cap the tube and mix. The sample is now ready for analysis (Section 1.2). Allowance for sample dilution should be made in the calculations."

 

[GainesvilleReef]

Since we're on the subject, and I've yet to find anything comparable.. What suggestions do you have Randy for preparation for an ICP? (going to use triton, already ordered a couple test kits)

In contemplating the comparison to find out if Red Sea is full of it or not (because 3ppm of "mystery compounds" leaves the door open to many interpretations aside from contaminants) I'm going to send in a test of each, the nopox, and the diy recipe. Unfortunately we won't be able to do a NMR of store vodka/vinegar, but at least we can do an ICP of each for comparison sake.

I'm tempted to dilute it as I don't know if Triton will still test it if it smells like it does, but at the same time I do not want to dilute it to the point of not detecting something.
Thoughts? (apologies as I've not sat down to write up possibilities, but I'm assuming between a NMR and an ICP we'll be able to see 99% of what's in each? I recall the NMR guy remarking nopox being pretty darn pure otherwise, can't say the same for store-bought vodka let alone cooking vinegar)

(this is where somebody is chanting "FOR SCIENCE!")

I just can't wait for you to get your ICP results from TRITON so you can tell us what's in the product. Good luck. I'm prepping a sample of ketchup for them right now. I'll be sure to post my results "FOR SCIENCE".

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

I just can't wait for you to get your ICP results from TRITON so you can tell us what's in the product. Good luck. I'm prepping a sample of ketchup for them right now. I'll be sure to post my results "FOR SCIENCE".

I'll be sure to share them, as it sounds like trace differences is not what's been investigated so far.
Thanks, and good luck with your ketchup Richard.

 

[Oceansize]

The ingredients of ketchup are well known, there are no proprietary ingredients involved, thus I do not see the benefit of conducting an ICP test on ketchup. Heinz 57 sauce, on the other hand...

On another note, if we soak a drumstick from KFC in some water and send that to Triton, maybe we can find out what the Colonel's secret recipe is!! Triton can detect so many things, certainly they can detect 11 different herbs & spices.

All this talk about nopox is making me hungry.

 

[Daniel@R2R]

The ingredients of ketchup are well known, there are no proprietary ingredients involved, thus I do not see the benefit of conducting an ICP test on ketchup. Heinz 57 sauce, on the other hand...

On another note, if we soak a drumstick from KFC in some water and send that to Triton, maybe we can find out what the Colonel's secret recipe is!! Triton can detect so many things, certainly they can detect 11 different herbs & spices.

All this talk about nopox is making me hungry.

Darn it! Now I want KFC!! :mad:

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

The ingredients of ketchup are well known, there are no proprietary ingredients involved, thus I do not see the benefit of conducting an ICP test on ketchup. Heinz 57 sauce, on the other hand...

On another note, if we soak a drumstick from KFC in some water and send that to Triton, maybe we can find out what the Colonel's secret recipe is!! Triton can detect so many things, certainly they can detect 11 different herbs & spices.

All this talk about nopox is making me hungry.

Lol, don't know if I would say 'detect so many things'.
It will tell us more than what we already know though, for sure.