Understanding Vibrant: Algaefix, Polixetonium Chloride / Busan 77

[jeffww]

In the meantime people still seem to be bottling what's likely polyquat as "natural" algae remedies. It's actually incredible how easy doing this seems to be. It shouldn't be the hobbyist's job to play whack a mole or chemical sherlock holmes with bad actors like this. They are a "plant derived" anti algae that lists 1% tannic acids to try to obfuscate the analysis. I'm almost certain we could just feed it through a column of activated carbon to clean it up and just get the polyquat out and do the same analysis. Based out of seattle so I would bet state of washington would go after them with enough proof.

Algae Control

Algae Control is a plant based treatment effective against many aquatic algae types and cyanobacteria. The product is a water soluble liquid that can be applied as a foliar spray or added directly to tanks and bodies of water. The active ingredients in our product targets and inhibits various...

greenwaterlabs.com

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0602/1690/1785/files/Algae_Control_SDS_10_22.pdf?v=1665272269

 

[KrisReef]

Glad to see that the information has been obtained and the results explained for the community.

 

[a.t.t.r]

In the meantime people still seem to be bottling what's likely polyquat as "natural" algae remedies. It's actually incredible how easy doing this seems to be. It shouldn't be the hobbyist's job to play whack a mole or chemical sherlock holmes with bad actors like this. They are a "plant derived" anti algae that lists 1% tannic acids to try to obfuscate the analysis. I'm almost certain we could just feed it through a column of activated carbon to clean it up and just get the polyquat out and do the same analysis. Based out of seattle so I would bet state of washington would go after them with enough proof.

Algae Control

Algae Control is a plant based treatment effective against many aquatic algae types and cyanobacteria. The product is a water soluble liquid that can be applied as a foliar spray or added directly to tanks and bodies of water. The active ingredients in our product targets and inhibits various...

greenwaterlabs.com

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0602/1690/1785/files/Algae_Control_SDS_10_22.pdf?v=1665272269

Was just coming to post this! Started seeing the ads today. https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0602/1690/1785/files/Algae_Control_SDS_10_22.pdf?v=1665272269

 

[taricha]

It shouldn't be the hobbyist's job to play whack a mole or chemical sherlock holmes with bad actors like this.

With benefit of hindsight and knowing a bit more what to look for, polyquat solutions are not hard to detect. (if you want to know which polyquat, that's still a hard question you need a fancy-lab-test for.)

If a hobbyist wanted to know if someone is sneaking polyquat into an algae killing product, there's several things you could do to check ranked from easiest/cheapest - to highest confidence.

1) Dawn soap: (check label to make sure it's got Sodium Lauryl Sulfate)
stir ~1 teaspoon soap in ~1 cup of tap water.
A single drop of the polyquat product (if it has a few %) into 50mL of the dilute soapy water will form strong white precipitate that clouds the whole thing. A drop of saltwater or of any bacterial product barely does anything.

2) bromophenol blue:
dry a drop of the suspect product on a glass slide, dry drops of saltwater, tap water, bacterial products or any other comparison side by side. Add a drop of Bromophenol blue to each dried spot.
a polyquat solution even if you dilute it 30x or so, will shift the color indicator from purple to blue (subtle shift). A non-polymer quaternary ammonium compound (like benzalkonium chloride) will shift the color much more to a sky blue.

3) SDS solution (more persuasive version of dawn soap chemistry):
Add 1x up to 10x recommended doses of the suspected product to saltwater. Add 10mL of the saltwater + product samples to hanna cuvettes, add 0.10mL of 10% SDS solution. Cloudines will be proportional to polyquat concentration. Can compare concentration to known labeled products this way. (I found out my LFS was using Vibrant on their display tank - but not their other tanks - this way .)

4) LaMotte Polyquat titration kit
This is a kit specifically for polyquats and contains corrections for pH, hardness etc. Gives good quantification. Test product diluted into freshwater, it fails in saltwater.

5) fancy professional lab test

Honestly, every hobby additive I've ever checked was easily distinguished between the polyquats and everything else by just the dawn soap test.

 

[rtparty]

Just reading the ingredient list and all instructions makes it sound just like Vibrant all over.

I believe my dad is using this on his FW planted tank. I will grab some and do the dawn test

 

[taricha]

@rtparty The Dawn soap thing by itself isn't enough for me to declare that I know something is a polyquat. But it's plenty to tell me what's not a polyquat and what to be very suspicious of.

 

[a.t.t.r]

Just reading the ingredient list and all instructions makes it sound just like Vibrant all over.

I believe my dad is using this on his FW planted tank. I will grab some and do the dawn test

They are claiming it’s safe for saltwater now as well… they still are saying “maybe ok” for reef

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I tried to find out if any Reef2Reef sponsors sell it, but came up empty.

 

[rtparty]

@rtparty The Dawn soap thing by itself isn't enough for me to declare that I know something is a polyquat. But it's plenty to tell me what's not a polyquat and what to be very suspicious of.

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, I am going to assume it is a duck in this situation

At a minimum, it very likely tells us they are lying in their marketing and claims just like UWC. Sadly, no compnay gets the benefit of the doubt with algae killing elixirs these days

 

[rtparty]

Ever since talking about Green Water Labs in here and with my dad to get a sample from him, it’s popping up all over my Facebook ads. (I didn’t get a sample yet BTW.)

So I decided to read a few comments from them.

Couple notable comments have been (I’m paraphrasing here)

“It can be used in saltwater but they don’t know if it’s safe with corals yet

It will lower your pH slightly when used.”


So my question is do we know if polyquats will lower pH when used? Would an “organic biowaste, plant based solution” lower pH as well?

I understand answering those questions likely has a lot of gray area and caveats but maybe it sheds a little light?

 

[taricha]

So my question is do we know if polyquats will lower pH when used? Would an “organic biowaste, plant based solution” lower pH as well?

I understand answering those questions likely has a lot of gray area and caveats but maybe it sheds a little light?

Those statements could be accurate, and still wouldn't tell us much of anything. Those polyquats don't have strong pH effects themselves, so a little bit of other stuff in the bottles could move the pH around without indicating anything about the polyquat or if there is any.

 

[a.t.t.r]

Ever since talking about Green Water Labs in here and with my dad to get a sample from him, it’s popping up all over my Facebook ads. (I didn’t get a sample yet BTW.)

So I decided to read a few comments from them.

Couple notable comments have been (I’m paraphrasing here)

“It can be used in saltwater but they don’t know if it’s safe with corals yet

It will lower your pH slightly when used.”


So my question is do we know if polyquats will lower pH when used? Would an “organic biowaste, plant based solution” lower pH as well?

I understand answering those questions likely has a lot of gray area and caveats but maybe it sheds a little light?

Tannins can lower the pH. Those might be in there just to obscure any attempts at testing. Only extract that has ever seemed to have any impact was some hay extract years ago for fw iirc. I dunno how or why or if it really worked

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Those statements could be accurate, and still wouldn't tell us much of anything. Those polyquats don't have strong pH effects themselves, so a little bit of other stuff in the bottles could move the pH around without indicating anything about the polyquat or if there is any.

Agreed, a quaternary amine has no impact on pH.

 

[rtparty]

Agreed, a quaternary amine has no impact on pH.

I saw one of the ingredients is acetic acid but only like 3% or something low

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I saw one of the ingredients is acetic acid but only like 3% or something low

The pH in the bottle certainly can be from acetic acid. 3% acetic acid in DI water will have quite a low pH.

 

[a.t.t.r]

 

[MnFish1]

Don't see any information here or on their website - that this is vibrant 2.0. Which carries several connotations. I guess one could say 'Algaefix 2.0' - but I'm not sure thats correct either.

 

[rtparty]

So they actually haven’t developed anything new or groundbreaking like they claim?

 

[MnFish1]

So they actually haven’t developed anything new or groundbreaking like they claim?

Do me a favor - post where they have claimed something groundbreaking - then prove that they are wrong

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]