Why folks don’t like adding nutrients

[sixty_reefer]

His point was was that potassium nitrate is not 'organic'. It's 'in-organic' - I don't understand the calculator's role. K is inorganic. Nitrate is inorganic.

The point is absolutely right, my point is wile using potassium nitrate salts there is also a N content, N stands for nitrogen and a organic nutrient. Randy also explain to me that the same happens with some phosphates that contain organic and inorganic forms of phosphates, not just inorganic phosphate.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Yes - and I know my post seemed somewhat harsh - but - this is just my opinion - it seems like you have an agenda about CNP ratios and have rightly posted interesting discussions about the topic. But - I have to say - I still am not totally sure what you view actually is on the topic. I do not think many are 'against using target nutrients'. But - for those who ARE - they may not know about the subject, they may have tried and seen no difference, or they may merely be able to keep their levels where they are just by managing them in other ways.

Discussion is a good way to interact and gain knowledge, many folks don’t know yet that there is much more to nutrient besides phosphates and nitrates. It’s a interesting subject that can explain many things about our systems

 

[HBtank]

That’s a good example, folks will prefer to trow a crazy amount of food into a system, instead of dosing calcium nitrate because is a “chemical” although they won’t have any issues dosing AB+ that in a way are nutrient in a chemical form also.

As a side question, do you know of a thread or resource for how much alk and calcium is generated from calcium nitrate? I am going to use ESV and trying to figure how much my AFR dosing will be off-set, and then also balance trace element dosing.

 

[Rusty_L_Shackleford]

That’s a good example, folks will prefer to trow a crazy amount of food into a system, instead of dosing calcium nitrate because is a “chemical” although they won’t have any issues dosing AB+ that in a way are nutrient in a chemical form also.

Im kindof one of these people. I would rather feed more than use a chemical suppliment. Not because im against using them if i need to. I just think feeding more is a better way to go about it if i can. Imo there are more benefits this way. More food will support larger populationa of all kinds of stuff. More pods, worms, etc. So if i can do that and boost those populatuons i will. But if thats not cutting it then sure dose as needed. But i would try upping the food first.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The point is absolutely right, my point is wile using potassium nitrate salts there is also a N content, N stands for nitrogen and a organic nutrient. Randy also explain to me that the same happens with some phosphates that contain organic and inorganic forms of phosphates, not just inorganic phosphate.

Nitrate, NO3-, is inorganic. It contains no carbon or hydrogen.

Potassium, K+, is inorganic for the same reason.

Organics that contain nitrogen and can be considered nutrients are the natural amino acids, proteins, DNA, RNA, lecithin, many vitamins such as riboflavin, and many more.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

As a side question, do you know of a thread or resource for how much alk and calcium is generated from calcium nitrate? I am going to use ESV and trying to figure how much my AFR dosing will be off-set, and then also balance trace element dosing.

Calcium nitrate is a balanced alk and calcium supplement, like limewater (kalkwasser). It adds 2.3 dKH of alk per 50 ppm of nitrate metabolized.

I discuss that here:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-12/rhf/index.htm

However, the news is not all bad. When this nitrate proceeds further along the nitrogen cycle, depleted alkalinity is returned in exactly the amount lost. For example, if the nitrate is allowed to be converted into N2 in a sand bed, one of the products is bicarbonate, as shown in equation 2 (below) for the breakdown of glucose and nitrate under typical anoxic conditions as might happen in a deep sand bed:

(2) 4NO3- + 5/6 C6H12O6 (glucose) + 4H2O —> 2 N2 + 7H2O + 4HCO3- + CO2
In equation 2 we see that exactly one bicarbonate ion is produced for each nitrate ion consumed. Consequently, the alkalinity gain is 0.8 meq/L (2.3 dKH) for every 50 ppm of nitrate consumed.

Likewise, equation 3 (below) shows the uptake of nitrate and CO2into macroalgae to form typical organic molecules:

(3) 122 CO2 + 122 H2O + 16 NO3- —> C106H260O106N16 + 138 O2 + 16 HCO3-
Again, one bicarbonate ion is produced for each nitrate ion consumed.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Was this nutrient goal change a result of looking to control nuisance algae, bacteria and diatom blooms?

Imo yes, as organic nutrient will influence them more in comparison to inorganic nutrients. Dinoflagellates for example often bloom under zero inorganic nutrients. It’s know that phytoplankton can thrive in organic nutrients only.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Nitrate, NO3-, is inorganic. It contains no carbon or hydrogen.

Potassium, K+, is inorganic for the same reason.

Organics that contain nitrogen and can be considered nutrients are the natural amino acids, proteins, DNA, RNA, lecithin, many vitamins such as riboflavin, and many more.

What would the N stand for in the calculator?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What would the N stand for in the calculator?

It is not a different thing than the nitrate, it’s a different way of quantifying it.

Some people, especially in the freshwater world, like to express ammonia, nitrate and nitrite all in terms of ppm N (nitrogen) rather than in ppm nitrate, etc. Nitrogen comprises about 22.6% of the mass of the nitrate ion, so N is lower than nitrate in that calculator by that factor.

 

[sixty_reefer]

It is not a different thing than the nitrate, it’s a different way of quantifying it.

Some people, especially in the freshwater world, like to express ammonia, nitrate and nitrite all in terms of ppm N (nitrogen) rather than in ppm nitrate, etc. Nitrogen comprises about 22.6% of the mass of the nitrate ion, so N is lower than nitrate in that calculator by that factor.

I think I got it now, is the nitrogen content inorganic and will eventually become nitrate depending on the organism that will use it? Or I’m still far off?

 

[HBtank]

Calcium nitrate is a balanced alk and calcium supplement, like limewater (kalkwasser). It adds 2.3 dKH of alk per 50 ppm of nitrate metabolized.

I discuss that here:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-12/rhf/index.htm

However, the news is not all bad. When this nitrate proceeds further along the nitrogen cycle, depleted alkalinity is returned in exactly the amount lost. For example, if the nitrate is allowed to be converted into N2 in a sand bed, one of the products is bicarbonate, as shown in equation 2 (below) for the breakdown of glucose and nitrate under typical anoxic conditions as might happen in a deep sand bed:

(2) 4NO3- + 5/6 C6H12O6 (glucose) + 4H2O —> 2 N2 + 7H2O + 4HCO3- + CO2
In equation 2 we see that exactly one bicarbonate ion is produced for each nitrate ion consumed. Consequently, the alkalinity gain is 0.8 meq/L (2.3 dKH) for every 50 ppm of nitrate consumed.

Likewise, equation 3 (below) shows the uptake of nitrate and CO2into macroalgae to form typical organic molecules:

(3) 122 CO2 + 122 H2O + 16 NO3- —> C106H260O106N16 + 138 O2 + 16 HCO3-
Again, one bicarbonate ion is produced for each nitrate ion consumed.

Appreciated, so it looks like I can use the ESV guidance below:

• 1ml/20 gals. of aquarium water adds 1 ppm nitrate.

Using that it appears that 1 ml of ESV in my 80 gallon tank will raise nitrate by 0.25 ppm, and when metabolized, approximately 0.012 dKH?

• Then using the AFR calculator, it appears that 1ml of AFR in my 80 gallon tank will raise dKH by approximately 0.018 dKH.

I believe the above would give me a rough gauge of what I need to off-set my AFR dosing.

• Based on the above, I calculated that for every 1 ml of ESV I dose, I need to reduce my AFR dosing by 0.62 ml to off-set the alk/calcium being added by ESV dosing.

If that is correct then the next step is seeing how much of their trace elements K+ and A- I would need to dose per ml of ESV added to keep it in proportion with the AFR recipe?

 

[MnFish1]

I think I got it now, is the nitrogen content inorganic and will eventually become nitrate depending on the organism that will use it? Or I’m still far off?

You are IDK if its 'far off' but its off. Nitrate is still inorganic - as is ammonia (which some people feed) - and as is nitrite. The end product is supposed to be N2 Gas (also inorganic) - but - whether that happens in every tank depends on a lot of things. The questions you ask are excellent IMHO - to provoke discussion and knowledge. I appreciate them

 

[MnFish1]

The point is absolutely right, my point is wile using potassium nitrate salts there is also a N content, N stands for nitrogen and a organic nutrient. Randy also explain to me that the same happens with some phosphates that contain organic and inorganic forms of phosphates, not just inorganic phosphate.

imo - define what you mean - You have not.

 

[sixty_reefer]

You are IDK if its 'far off' but its off. Nitrate is still inorganic - as is ammonia (which some people feed) - and as is nitrite. The end product is supposed to be N2 Gas (also inorganic) - but - whether that happens in every tank depends on a lot of things. The questions you ask are excellent IMHO - to provoke discussion and knowledge. I appreciate them

You are correct, some organisms in our systems could assimilate ammonia before it becomes nitrite meaning no nitrates and no n2 gas. in a system with a nuisance algae bloom and no nitrates, what would the algae be using to build DNA and RNA? Ammonia and other nitrogen compounds or nitrates as a macro nutrient?

as algae bloom it could be phytoplankton (dinoflagellates) or green algae like GHA as a example

 

[sixty_reefer]

imo - define what you mean - You have not.

In another thread we’re discussing ways to increase DOP and I’ve been advised that sodium phosphate is able to do that, it looks like sodium phosphate contains Sodium glycerophosphate that is organic according to google.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think I got it now, is the nitrogen content inorganic and will eventually become nitrate depending on the organism that will use it? Or I’m still far off?

Close. It is already nitrate.

That nitrate can be measured in many ways, like height in cm or inches. In this case it is nitrate ion or nitrate nitrogen.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

In another thread we’re discussing ways to increase DOP and I’ve been advised that sodium phosphate is able to do that, it looks like sodium phosphate contains Sodium glycerophosphate that is organic according to google.

No. Sodium phosphate contains only sodium phosphate and perhaps a number of other inorganic impurities at low levels, such as potassium or chloride.

That said, someone somewhere might sell a mixture for some purpose. You have a link?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You are correct, some organisms in our systems could assimilate ammonia before it becomes nitrite meaning no nitrates and no n2 gas. in a system with a nuisance algae bloom and no nitrates, what would the algae be using to build DNA and RNA? Ammonia and other nitrogen compounds or nitrates as a macro nutrient?

as algae bloom it could be phytoplankton (dinoflagellates) or green algae like GHA as a example

I do not know all of the organics that algae may consume, but it is highly unlikely, imo, that they can take up and metabolize large organics such as proteins or dna.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Appreciated, so it looks like I can use the ESV guidance below:

• 1ml/20 gals. of aquarium water adds 1 ppm nitrate.

Using that it appears that 1 ml of ESV in my 80 gallon tank will raise nitrate by 0.25 ppm, and when metabolized, approximately 0.012 dKH?

• Then using the AFR calculator, it appears that 1ml of AFR in my 80 gallon tank will raise dKH by approximately 0.018 dKH.

I believe the above would give me a rough gauge of what I need to off-set my AFR dosing.

• Based on the above, I calculated that for every 1 ml of ESV I dose, I need to reduce my AFR dosing by 0.62 ml to off-set the alk/calcium being added by ESV dosing.

If that is correct then the next step is seeing how much of their trace elements K+ and A- I would need to dose per ml of ESV added to keep it in proportion with the AFR recipe?

I didn’t double check the math, but that’s the right process.

I doubt the decrease in AFR is enough to worry about the trace element loss. The calculation of needed trace elements is not a science, but guesswork since calcifying corals are not necessarily the main user and certainly not the only user of many trace elements in many tanks. Macroalgae, soft corals, anemones, sponges, etc all use trace elements and a vendor like TM is just providing an average consumption (I hope, anything else is even less useful).

 

[sixty_reefer]

I do not know all of the organics that algae may consume, but it is highly unlikely, imo, that they can take up and metabolize large organics such as proteins or dna.

I finally get to ask you a question that I’ve been meaning to ask for some time now.

I got hold of this fertiliser to grow algae and it works pretty well, it claims to be nitrogen, potassium, phosphorus and minerals

it’s one of two products that I can find that claims to be a blend of nitrogen and phosphorus, all others seem to contain nitrates or phosphates. I’m not sure if organic or inorganic all I know is that grows phytoplankton fairly fast. Hence my thought that algaes can use nitrogen forms to grow. Have I been mislead by a product? I