Why folks don’t like adding nutrients

[MnFish1]

No, it does not. What I posted is what is listed under ingredients. no percentages listed.
But it says right on the bottle "used as a preservative and carbon source"

So there must be enough of it that they consider it more than just a preservative.

I've been dosing this product for months... thinking it was aminos, and by dosing them, I would be adding nutrients to the tank. Hasn't worked. My tank still bounces off zeros.

I've been dosing live phyto for months too.... also thinking it would be adding to my nutrients. hasn't worked. my tank still bounces off zeros.

Turns out, these things are probably working against me and may in fact be lowering my nutrients rather than adding to them???

Guess I'm going back to just dosing Nitrates via ESV calcium nitrate and see if it's easier to maintain a low level of nitrates, rather than constantly bouncing them off zero. Regardless, it will be cheaper.

I personally have gone to dosing nothing. I use manual removal methods. and have had no problem . I think @sixty_reefer you are trying to make a fix for everything with some modality. This is not common sense

 

[MnFish1]

Acetic acid/acetate dosing - is well known - my guess is that this is not a preservative in whatever product is being used - instead - some sort of magic formula - which with I would also not agree - to dosing Nitrogen and phosphorous. IMHO the problem with this thread is - Its about CNP - but there are thousands of combinations the people use.

 

[HomebroodExotics]

Acetic acid/acetate dosing - is well known - my guess is that this is not a preservative in whatever product is being used - instead - some sort of magic formula - which with I would also not agree - to dosing Nitrogen and phosphorous. IMHO the problem with this thread is - Its about CNP - but there are thousands of combinations the people use.

Not to mention the made up definitions of organic and inorganic, dosing and feeding. Thread is a confusing mess.

 

[MnFish1]

Rather than criticize other methods - I will give my method - Keep the levels of the 'stuff' we can measure as close to the ocean as possible. Everyone will be able to post an exception - my tank is xxxxxxxxx great - but your take might not have yyyyyyy. This is the problem with a one fixes all solution, IMHO

 

[sixty_reefer]

Not to mention the made up definitions of organic and inorganic, dosing and feeding. Thread is a confusing mess.

Please elaborate, the definition is not made up and there is a answer for Randy and Mnfish although it would just deviate from the point we discussing here more. There are organic compounds without hydrogen atoms that’s why In the definition you say most. Are they of any interest for this thread? Not really

 

[MnFish1]

Please elaborate, the definition is not made up and there is a answer for Randy and Mnfish although it would just deviate from the point we discussing here more. There are organic compounds without hydrogen atoms that’s why In the definition you say most. Are they of any interest for this thread? Not really

In your OP you mention dosing 'Nutrients'. Which can include 'Trace elements' - That changed to Inorganic vs Organic CNP - which was totally unclear - and you made at least a couple mistakes that did not clarify what you were saying. Granted, you said - some or 'whatever' - but - It was still a little unclear - so - thought you did not 'make up' any definitions, your comments were (to me - stupid me) - completely unclear as to the point. Probably my problem.

 

[MnFish1]

Please elaborate, the definition is not made up and there is a answer for Randy and Mnfish although it would just deviate from the point we discussing here more. There are organic compounds without hydrogen atoms that’s why In the definition you say most. Are they of any interest for this thread? Not really

BTW I just read the current post above - It - honestly makes no sense (to me) - Because the entire thread depends on what you define as 'nutrients'. all of these things are degraded/assimilated to smaller things - and then built into bigger things. So - I guess my answer remains the same - it's all personal preference. There is no right or wrong. Which in itself is interesting - since multiple people using various CNP levels and ratios have success in reefing - it goes against your premise from the start

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

A bunch of chemists drinking at a bar might find it fun to try to think up a molecule that they would consider organic that doesn’t contain hydrogen. I’m not impressed by the examples I see folks post online when considering this question, but rest assured that these unusual molecules, whether organic or inorganic or at the borderline between the two, are not likely playing a detectable role in any reef tank.

Definitions are important for lawyers. I spent a lot of time in a patent trial arguing what the term “aliphatic” actually meant. But chemists understand these terms in the real world, even if a lawyer might not be satisfied with their answers.

 

[MnFish1]

A bunch of chemists drinking at a bar might find it fun to try to think up a molecule that they would consider organic that doesn’t contain hydrogen. I’m not impressed by the examples I see folks post online when considering this question, but rest assured that these unusual molecules, whether organic or inorganic or at the borderline between the two, are not likely playing a detectable role in any reef tank.

Definitions are important for lawyers. I spent a lot of time in a patent trial arguing what the term “aliphatic” actually meant. But chemists understand these terms in the real world, even if a lawyer might not be satisfied with their answers.

What would a group of chemists do when they were thinking about what a 'nutrient' is?

 

[HomebroodExotics]

Please elaborate, the definition is not made up and there is a answer for Randy and Mnfish although it would just deviate from the point we discussing here more. There are organic compounds without hydrogen atoms that’s why In the definition you say most. Are they of any interest for this thread? Not really

A bunch of chemists drinking at a bar might find it fun to try to think up a molecule that they would consider organic that doesn’t contain hydrogen. I’m not impressed by the examples I see folks post online when considering this question, but rest assured that these unusual molecules, whether organic or inorganic or at the borderline between the two, are not likely playing a detectable role in any reef tank.

Definitions are important for lawyers. I spent a lot of time in a patent trial arguing what the term “aliphatic” actually meant. But chemists understand these terms in the real world, even if a lawyer might not be satisfied with their answers.

If you told me that your beer was better to drink because it contained organic nutrients and not inorganic nutrients like my beer, I'd be really confused. But I am not a chemist.

 

[sixty_reefer]

What would a group of chemists do when they were thinking about what a 'nutrient' is?

Most likely starting by naming a organism. Diatoms and a montipora digitata for example will have a fairly different nutrient need for the maintenance of life and growth, dendronephtya nutrient needs are unknown to all yet etc..

 

[sixty_reefer]

In your OP you mention dosing 'Nutrients'. Which can include 'Trace elements' - That changed to Inorganic vs Organic CNP - which was totally unclear - and you made at least a couple mistakes that did not clarify what you were saying. Granted, you said - some or 'whatever' - but - It was still a little unclear - so - thought you did not 'make up' any definitions, your comments were (to me - stupid me) - completely unclear as to the point. Probably my problem.

Everything been fine, and as questions emerged I answered to the best of my knowledge, taking into account the organism in mind that could be affected with certain nutrients, it’s impossible to speak of nutrients without mentioning the various forms they take in our system. You may be right and it’s probably your problem you should had read the conversations.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What would a group of chemists do when they were thinking about what a 'nutrient' is?

Probably ask for pretzels.

 

[MnFish1]

Everything been fine, and as questions emerged I answered to the best of my knowledge, taking into account the organism in mind that could be affected with certain nutrients, it’s impossible to speak of nutrients without mentioning the various forms they take in our system. You may be right and it’s probably your problem you should had read the conversations.

I was being facetious - it was not my problem. I read the conversations. Your OP was unclear - and your explanations contained at least a few errors - though you might want to consider them small errors - all good. If you want to discuss 'nutrients' - it MIGHT be best to define what you mean in the first post. Otherwise - it's completely incomprehensible IMHO. But - I still respect you and the discussion

 

[sixty_reefer]

I was being facetious - it was not my problem. I read the conversations. Your OP was unclear - and your explanations contained at least a few errors - though you might want to consider them small errors - all good. If you want to discuss 'nutrients' - it MIGHT be best to define what you mean in the first post. Otherwise - it's completely incomprehensible IMHO. But - I still respect you and the discussion

I only know so much on the subject and it’s hard work to try and figure out what uses what in a tank. In this discussion macro nutrients tend to be the centre point and deviate to micro nutrients. The opening statement is simple and as you may already pointed out our systems are made of a big mix of nutrients although today many are still against using target macro nutrients to resolve issues in our systems with a common situation being phosphates or nitrates. Many folks are still against this and I just wondered why? I believe I had my answers and it most felt on bad experiences as nitrates and phosphates don’t come in a clean form, there is always a couple more nutrients being added with them ex. Potassium nitrate that adds potassium, nitrate and nitrogen, this is we’re some of the organic Vs inorganic comments started from potassium nitrate adds organic and inorganic nutrients not just inorganic as many would believe.

 

[sixty_reefer]

If you told me that your beer was better to drink because it contained organic nutrients and not inorganic nutrients like my beer, I'd be really confused. But I am not a chemist.

And that’s alright, not everyone likes the same beer as I do. Although if you ever curious why some tanks do better than others under the same inorganic nutrients you may want to start investigating the organics as there’s were the difference is.

 

[HomebroodExotics]

I only know so much on the subject and it’s hard work to try and figure out what uses what in a tank. In this discussion macro nutrients tend to be the centre point and deviate to micro nutrients. The opening statement is simple and as you may already pointed out our systems are made of a big mix of nutrients although today many are still against using target macro nutrients to resolve issues in our systems with a common situation being phosphates or nitrates. Many folks are still against this and I just wondered why? I believe I had my answers and it most felt on bad experiences as nitrates and phosphates don’t come in a clean form, there is always a couple more nutrients being added with them ex. Potassium nitrate that adds potassium, nitrate and nitrogen, this is we’re some of the organic Vs inorganic comments started from potassium nitrate adds organic and inorganic nutrients not just inorganic as many would believe.

That's the fun part though. It's the same beer at the end of the day.

 

[sixty_reefer]

That's the fun part though. It's the same beer at the end of the day.

Ok

 

[sixty_reefer]

@MnFish1 thank you for your contribution, Following our conversation I done some digging up and thanks to you, I believe I have now found the final piece of the puzzle I needed for a personal goal regarding dendronephtya nutrition needs that have been overlooked.

 

[Garf]

@MnFish1 thank you for your contribution, Following our conversation I done some digging up and thanks to you, I believe I have now found the final piece of the puzzle I needed for a personal goal regarding dendronephtya nutrition needs that have been overlooked.

Pretzels?