Bolus dosing

[BeanAnimal]

Yes "you"...

You said "it works" in context to "bolus dosing".

It "works" for exactly what? The videos are full of claims. So contextually to the videos and this thread what exactly "works". It is an honest question.

That was clearly a response (as quoted) to Dutch Reefer. You speak for each other?

 

[Mo.]

Wait? And you do understand 'it' so your presence here is warranted and the rest of us should just need to understand.

Perfect.

What I will point out though since it was the original premise I came with and since you insist on glossing over it.

The reason I came here, is that I don’t understand why those readings arise I have pointed out which and I have shown the alk stability that I also don’t understand and I wanted somebody wiser than me to try and explain it to me.

Perfect,

so we now have THAT clear.
Explain away….

 

[Mo.]

Can you post similar graphs from when you were dosing the same product spread out?

The ones to the left of the top graph- where the pH was lower…. I chose this screen to straddle it….

 

[BeanAnimal]

But you will Always find a reason that this is due or error or tolerances in the equipment or what not- when you rely on consumer level test kits yourself and never question that……

It’s a joke….

I think that claiming this (whatever it is) is settled based on one person's "confirmation" of another persons somewhat fantastical claims, all based on an observation of data changes well within the margin of error...

is a joke (to use your terms)

I think most of us are looking for a bit more from a scientific standpoint, that's all.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

No!

This doesn’t need that level of repeatability to ensure it’s not error.

It just need common sense and multiple people to try it out and get repeatability that way.

I have already posted that I have switched back and forth several times and got the same results over several
Months.

But you will Always find a reason that this is due or error or tolerances in the equipment or what not- when you rely on consumer level test kits yourself and never question that……

It’s a joke….

No, as the saying goes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Bicarbonate in seawater comprises the vast majority of alk.

One the the wholly accepted tenants of chemistry is that molecules do not remember where they came from. Identical molecules act identically regardless of their history.

Thus, adding more bicarbonate to the existing bicarbonate, and claiming that the original bicarbonates are counted by alk titration, but the newly added ones are not is a truly extraordinary claim.

That’s why an experiment running just at the edge of the noise in testing will require additional support to believe it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The ones to the left of the top graph- where the pH was lower…. I chose this screen to straddle it….

And the matching alk data?

 

[Mo.]

Yes "you"...

You said "it works" in context to "bolus dosing".

It "works" for exactly what? The videos are full of claims. So contextually to the videos and this thread what exactly "works". It is an honest question.

That was clearly a response (as quoted) to Dutch Reefer. You speak for each other?

We’re going around in circles again- repeating what I have already repeated….

Is there a brick wall around here- I feel the need to bang my head.

 

[BeanAnimal]

We’re going around in circles again- repeating what I have already repeated….

Is there a brick wall around here- I feel the need to bang my head.

Your the guy answering responses to other people that were not directed toward you.

Did you happen to hit your head on that wall?

 

[Mo.]

No, as the saying goes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Bicarbonate in seawater comprises the vast majority of alk.

One the the wholly accepted tenants of chemistry is that molecules do not remember where they came from. Identical molecules act identically regardless of their history.

Thus, adding more bicarbonate to the existing bicarbonate, and claiming that the original bicarbonates are counted by alk titration, but the newly added ones are not is a truly extraordinary claim.

That’s why an experiment running just at the edge of the noise in testing will require additional support to believe it.

Try it yourself then…..

There is a limit to what I can do and describe. We just keep going around in circles every few days. And now we start again…..

 

[Mo.]

Your the guy answering responses to other people that were not directed toward you.

Did you happen to hit your head on that wall?

Sorry - I missed the last sentence o my phone after the screen grab.

I’ll go and sit in the corner..

 

[Mo.]

And the matching alk data?

It’s shifted a day on on the screen grab from my phone, but it’s the same as the one shown.

 

[Mo.]

I think that claiming this (whatever it is) is settled based on one person's "confirmation" of another persons somewhat fantastical claims, all based on an observation of data changes well within the margin of error...

is a joke (to use your terms)

I think most of us are looking for a bit more from a scientific standpoint, that's all.

And around we go in the circular argument….

It’s a few more than one person. Apparently, Quite a few more!


Well clearly, it’s beyond me, so why don’t you give it a go?!

I have already explained that the margin of error includes zero or no dosing at all- which is a fantastical claim?! That my 600 ml of alk could be 0ml and cause the lack of variation in the alk graph , so actually my corals aren’t growing at all and the growth I’ve seen is a myth…… please.

 

[elysics]

We’re going around in circles again- repeating what I have already repeated….

Is there a brick wall around here- I feel the need to bang my head.

"It works for me" was said by someone somewhere for every system out there, it's an opinion of that someone that their expectations were satisfied.

Which can be good if those expectations are high, meaningless if they were low, or bad if that someone is bad and judging outcomes.

So what were your satisfied expectations? Healthier corals with more colours now? With vibrance and sheen to them that was missing? Or something else?

 

[GARRIGA]

Shouldn't this be called something other than bolus since the word literally means one dose yet they propose a strict regiment using their proprietary products to accomplish this feat which is more complex than just a single dosage?

 

[Mo.]

No, as the saying goes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Bicarbonate in seawater comprises the vast majority of alk.

One the the wholly accepted tenants of chemistry is that molecules do not remember where they came from. Identical molecules act identically regardless of their history.

Thus, adding more bicarbonate to the existing bicarbonate, and claiming that the original bicarbonates are counted by alk titration, but the newly added ones are not is a truly extraordinary claim.

That’s why an experiment running just at the edge of the noise in testing will require additional support to believe it.

The pH shift isn’t at the edge of noise,

I would argue the alk isn’t either, again because you would have to suggest that 600ml of Alk is close to zero. Which is clearly not feasible, because there are biological results from that dousing, unless you’re saying I get no coral growth and the growth I’ve seen could be zero and I should be measuring it with a ruler. And so on….

 

[Mo.]

"It works for me" was said by someone somewhere for every system out there, it's an opinion of that someone that their expectations were satisfied.

Which can be good if those expectations are high, meaningless if they were low, or bad if that someone is bad and judging outcomes.

So what were your satisfied expectations? Healthier corals with more colours now? With vibrance and sheen to them that was missing? Or something else?

Please!

I’ve shown you my tanks for this very reason. Let’s move beyond basics and moving down to insulting my intelligence.

I know what good growth colour, health is, look back in this thread for evidence of that….

I can see I’m going to have to explain my personal qualifications at some point too……at least it seems to be heading that way.

At which point do you acknowledge that a reefer has some level of credibility?

Or if I say my alK is 8.0 do I have to do it in triplicate for you to believe me?! Whereas if you say your alk is 8.0
With a salifert kit, that isn’t going to be questioned?!

Can you guys extrapolate towards biological processes? How can the stable alk drift be put down to within error range of zero, so possibly no Alk is being dosed to explain the readings?! That goes against having SpS corals at all?! Don’t you see that?!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Try it yourself then…..

There is a limit to what I can do and describe. We just keep going around in circles every few days. And now we start again…..

You said you saw an effect when bolus dosing that was different than when dosing is different. It is useful to know what you saw, if one wants to evaluate it. It is also critical to know what exactly it is being compared to, since as I have noted multiple times, one expects different coral and pH results with different alk levels.

 

[Garf]

I would argue the alk isn’t either

What method of testing Alk are you using? Trident or similar?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The pH shift isn’t at the edge of noise,

I would argue the alk isn’t either, again because you would have to suggest that 600ml of Alk is close to zero. Which is clearly not feasible, because there are biological results from that dousing, unless you’re saying I get no coral growth and the growth I’ve seen could be zero and I should be measuring it with a ruler. And so on….

Right, it is not. Never said it was. The only extraordinary claim is the lack of alk effect on dosing bicarbonate. And your alk measurement is close to the error range.

The pH effect is exactly known for bolus dosing of bicarbonate, carbonate, and hydroxide, and is also known for photosynthesis. There is nothing magic here. I measured it myself and it exactly fits with widely recognized chemical science.

Photosynthesis raises pH. Raising alk boosts pH after equivalent aeration. Bolus dosing bicarbonate causes a tiny pH drop before aeration (too small for you to reliably detect at your low dose. I did reliably detect it when dosing 1.4 dKH: 0.06 pH units). Carbonate and hydroxide bolus dosing boost pH. All three of these effects are then impacted by the first effect: higher pH with higher alk after aeration.

If your spread out bicarbonate dosing had the same alk level at the same time of day as after your bolus dose, then it cannot have a lower pH. But the reason I am pursuing this is because we do not know what is being compared to the bonus. If the alk is lower in the am, then one would expect the pH to be lower. No magic, just science.

 

[Garf]

Whereas if you say your alk is 8.0
With a salifert kit, that isn’t going to be questioned?

Well yes, the accuracy and repeatability would be questioned if used as evidence of an odd claim, especially where gradients of colour change are a little subjective and 1 single drop of titration solution equates to about 0.2dkh on the test kit.