Bolus dosing

[elysics]

Please!

I’ve shown you my tanks for this very reason. Let’s move beyond basics and moving down to insulting my intelligence.

I know what good growth colour, health is, look back in this thread for evidence of that….

I can see I’m going to have to explain my personal qualifications at some point too……at least it seems to be heading that way.

At which point do you acknowledge that a reefer has some level of credibility?

Or if I say my alK is 8.0 do I have to do it in triplicate for you to believe me?! Whereas if you say your alk is 8.0
With a salifert kit, that isn’t going to be questioned?!

Can you guys extrapolate towards biological processes? How can the stable alk drift be put down to within error range of zero, so possibly no Alk is being dosed to explain the readings?! That goes against having SpS corals at all?! Don’t you see that?!

I may have missed some comments here and there, the question is, when you say "it works" do you mean "nothing bad has happened,tank is still great" or do you mean " it's awesome, tank is much better than before "

That's what I meant with expectations.

Because there certainly were some claims in the videos that it might potentially improve some things regarding the corals.

 

[Mo.]

"It works for me" was said by someone somewhere for every system out there, it's an opinion of that someone that their expectations were satisfied.

Which can be good if those expectations are high, meaningless if they were low, or bad if that someone is bad and judging outcomes.

So what were your satisfied expectations? Healthier corals with more colours now? With vibrance and sheen to them that was missing? Or something else?

Look at my first tank and you’ll see my expectations for the second, which is what I am seeing so far.

I have linked both my tanks several times.


I won tank of the month on Reef Central with the first one, but never got around to finishing the article.

I won tank of the month on Ultimate Reef twice, but never wrote up the second one, which was around the same time as the Reef Central one.

It would have been Sept 2015 when Adam Sutherland published his.

I think that’s a fairly high standard? As high as any of yours?

As for how good will it get- I don’t know. It’s as good as any other method I’ve seen. I haven’t used it long enough to say how good.

It can still be used with trace elements or moonshiners for example.

Initial results are good enough for it to be a longer term method for any reefer looking for success imo.

I only came here regarding the pH and AlK observations, looking for an explanation. I don’t work for FM.

Only they would have used the system for long enough to show results.

I have seen Doug’s Frags and they are as good as I have seen anywhere including WWC and TSA etc…..

 

[Mo.]

Well yes, the accuracy and repeatability would be questioned if used as evidence of an odd claim, especially where gradients of colour change are a little subjective and 1 single drop of titration solution equates to about 0.2dkh on the test kit.

Well do you have something more precise?? Or are you questioning for the sake of questioning?

 

[Mo.]

You said you saw an effect when bolus dosing that was different than when dosing is different. It is useful to know what you saw, if one wants to evaluate it. It is also critical to know what exactly it is being compared to, since as I have noted multiple times, one expects different coral and pH results with different alk levels.

Then this is a never ending circular argument.

What I saw is in the graphs.

Otherwise we can just keep going around in circles.

I am qualified enough to say whether the bolus system is on par with all other systems of maintenance and in my opinion it is. So move a along from that as there are too Many variables in that.

What needs to be addressed here is the reason for the pH spike and the alk stability on dosing.

If you can’t answer it, fine. Why disguise it under countless side arguments.

 

[Mo.]

Shouldn't this be called something other than bolus since the word literally means one dose yet they propose a strict regiment using their proprietary products to accomplish this feat which is more complex than just a single dosage?

I think the gist of it is the single bolus dose of alk producing the pH changes and alk stability seen or eventually seen.

The rest falls In place like any other higher pH system and stable Alk system.

I’ve seen this with Kalkwasser. They theorise that there could be some longer term problems with kalk-
Fine.

They suggest not to use it
With hydroxide based systems.

They have only tried it with their system. Which certainly has certain trace elements added to the alk. And may have other things in it.

I think that’s all they claimed and a bit of marketing to promote their product over others.

That’s my take on it….

Nobody here wants to accept that the pH and Alk readings in the graphs are possible, so are looking for reasons to support their impossibility. It that’s counter productive and will never get tot the bottom of the debate.

The other way is for some of you to try it and see what happens over a month or two.

I think that’s all they were asking.

You can forever go on about why it can’t work in theory, but until you try it in practice, it’s just theory……

As already suggested, bolus dosing has been used years ago, without the use of pH and Alk monitors that didn’t exist then. They are available now and these observations have been made as to why it may be that bolus dosing may be a good idea.

Whats wrong with that?

If you want to see similar results with kalk, look up Ryan Cunningham stream with Adam Sutherland and I think maybe Reef dudes and he describes his Kalkwasser dosing in which you get a gradual high pH and then can stabilise it at high levels around 8.6 even and at that stage, the AlK doesn’t move at all - literally 0.1 dKH per day fluctuation.

You can also hear Chris Meckley speak about the same thing…..

I don’t recall this level of uproar when kalk dosing or sodium hydroxide dosing showed similar levels of Alk stability throughout the day?


It’s a similar phenomneon here but with a single bolus Alk dose…. Which you can’t do with Kalk or other Hydroxides.

 

[SDchris]

I don’t recall this level of uproar when kalk dosing or sodium hydroxide dosing showed similar levels of Alk stability throughout the day?


It’s a similar phenomneon here

Nope. Black and white different. One follows well known and established pathways, the other does not.

observations have been made as to why it may be that bolus dosing may be a good idea.

This thread has never been about dosing once per day. It revolves around the "table top" statement and associated bi-carb only assertions.

Folks have reported that FM claims it is bicarbonate only in videos and such. The dry mix directions clearly show that it is not just sodium bicarbonate.

You seem very knowledgable on the videos and products. Maybe you can set the record straight.

 

[Mo.]

Nope. Black and white different. One follows well known and established pathways, the other does not.

Im Talking about the pH and alk response curves of course?!

Look at Ryan cunningham’s video about kalk and pH/ alk response curves…… but I bet you won’t.

This thread has never been about dosing once per day. It revolves around the "table top" statement and associated bi-carb only assertions.

You seem very knowledgable on the videos and products. Maybe you can set the record straight.

The basic claim is about the pH and alk repsonse. Thats what I came here and spoke about. The rest is secondary.

Read my previous posts on the thread! It’s becoming very monotonous!

You’re just set in concrete. …. You just glance over the point that I’m questioning and bring some random other fact and turn at a tangent..,,,

 

[Mo.]

This thread has never been about dosing once per day. It revolves around the "table top" statement and associated bi-carb only assertions.

Correct me if I’m wrong but the thread is titled “Bolus dosing”…..

Are you just deliberately winding me up?? lol

 

[Mo.]

Patience of a saint……

 

[Mo.]

Folks have reported that FM claims it is bicarbonate only in videos and such. The dry mix directions clearly show that it is not just sodium bicarbonate. Other documents note secret ingredients, so there's a whole lot of confusion about what the FM product actually is.

It’s a proprietary “mix” so I’m not expecting we’ll get to know?!

 

[Mo.]

I’ve just realised, is it only me that has posted pictures of his tank.

Can you post pictures as well please? Let’s establish that we can all put the theory into practice….

SDChris?

Cheers
Mo

 

[Mo.]

So I have been testing this method for last few day. I actually went and purchased fauna marin ballin( started with aquaforest ballin first) to just make sure I get this right and figure our if some of thier claimed are true.

I dosee 80ml for this stuff for .75dkh gain in a day as instructed in the morning at 8:30am and light on on blast at 9am

Here is what I noticed so far:

1- DKH does stay stable in 24h mark for sure. I tested dkh at peak photoperiod and it stayed at around 8.35dkh after 24h period.
Tested dkh right after the bolus dose and it measured 8.7dkh for few days I tested it.

2- this method doesn't do jack **** for pH. If anything my pH went down hill from what I'm used to before. Now my lows are at 7.8 and highs at 8.1dkh. Night time drop is severe and I don't think it's accounted for at all with this method ( I used to dose kalk at night to hold pH at 8.


I will continue to test day by day as they claim that the pH gain happens gradually over few weeks( I doubt it really based on what I'm seeing)

My corals are looking exact same as before this method so nothing to report here as far as growth or color

Hey

Your pH crashed because you went from regularly dosing a high pH solution (kalk) to a much lower one…

The kalk can keep your pH boosted, but you may also want to look at your room co2 levels to see if there are ways in which you can reduce it. That has been discussed on this thread as well.

That will help to boost your tanks natural pH, will make your bolus eventually work better and would probably have reduced your kalk dosing if you were chasing pH.

Cheers
Mo

 

[Mo.]

You seem very knowledgable on the videos and products. Maybe you can set the record straight.

Nah- I just read what’s out there. Same as you all could do….

 

[Garf]

Well do you have something more precise?? Or are you questioning for the sake of questioning?

Yes, I could use a pH probe and Randy's DIY test method to titrate down to 4.5pH which would be more accurate. However, I'm using salifert as it saves messing around with probes and stock solutions and I don't need that level of precision. The salifert is quick and easy with the understanding that a repeatability of test is subject to a wobbliness, this is especially important at consumption levels on the lower end. In the HTU, there is a suggestion to use an automated tester, which apparently have accuracy (maybe repeatability) of 0.05dkh.

 

[Koty]

How can we scientifically demonstrate that the Bolus method works?
Stage 1: have two sets (N>1) of identical tanks with the same size/population of corals, one treated with the Bolus and the other with the same amount dosed through 24 hrs
Monitor all parameters and analyze coral growth.
Stage 2: Establish a dose-response relationship to show that the larger the Bolus (within a reasonable range), the faster the growth.

FM can easily carry out this experiment during the short and preferably long term.

IMHO, I think we forgot the basics: We want to imitate the ocean as much as possible. Stability is and always will be key, even if it means that there are artificial ways to kick coral growth. This may be good for commercial growers who want their frags to grow faster, but we should ask ourselves what is more important. Faster growing corals due to pH/alkalinity and other associated fluctuations or stability? The Bolus method is not a good long-term strategy (IMO). The nostalgic reasons ("corals used to grow better when we added in a Bolus") do not hold for me.

 

[SDchris]

This thread has never been about dosing once per day. It revolves around the "table top" statement and associated bi-carb only assertions.

Correct me if I’m wrong but the thread is titled “Bolus dosing”…..

No ones questioned if dosing all at once is better or worse. That's all in your head.

You don’t have to forget that nobody is telling you that this way won’t work

But the fact that half of the HTU is incorrect and mostly marketing hogwash

Exactly. I never said there was anything wrong with boosting alk once a day. Higher alk all the time leads to certain benefits, so higher alk in the light cycle and lower alk at night from once a day dosing might be a good plan.

 

[DutchReefer420]

How can we scientifically demonstrate that the Bolus method works?
Stage 1: have two sets (N>1) of identical tanks with the same size/population of corals, one treated with the Bolus and the other with the same amount dosed through 24 hrs
Monitor all parameters and analyze coral growth.
Stage 2: Establish a dose-response relationship to show that the larger the Bolus (within a reasonable range), the faster the growth.

FM can easily carry out this experiment during the short and preferably long term.

IMHO, I think we forgot the basics: We want to imitate the ocean as much as possible. Stability is and always will be key, even if it means that there are artificial ways to kick coral growth. This may be good for commercial growers who want their frags to grow faster, but we should ask ourselves what is more important. Faster growing corals due to pH/alkalinity and other associated fluctuations or stability? The Bolus method is not a good long-term strategy (IMO). The nostalgic reasons ("corals used to grow better when we added in a Bolus") do not hold for me.

AND AGAIN PLEASE READ AND WATCH THE INFO PUT OUT THERE.......

itss all been talked about already

on FM farm they are running 50/50 Bolus vs non bolus

yall are just not willing to take in info
you read a sentence somewhere and start typing this nonsense

 

[Garf]

AND AGAIN PLEASE READ AND WATCH THE INFO PUT OUT THERE.......

itss all been talked about already

on FM farm they are running 50/50 Bolus vs non bolus

yall are just not willing to take in info
you read a sentence somewhere and start typing this nonsense

Have you got pictures or perhaps other experiments of the stated improvements of coral health and growth, side by side? Bolus v non Bolus. Cheers

 

[DutchReefer420]

Have you got pictures or perhaps other experiments of the stated improvements of coral health and growth, side by side? Bolus v non Bolus. Cheers

its all out there to go and see my friend..
FM is not hiding or something
you know FM is across the pond for you and you can just go a look for yourself and ask away my friend..

you have been asking for pictures and guys have been posting them and you just change the subject, i do not think any picture or 'evidence' will get you to give in

cheers.

 

[Justdrew]

can you prove that?

can you take your skimmer offline and show this?

When my skimmer is off my pH rises and my consumption goes up. It is dependent on CO2. I have a fairly airtight house and my CO2 readings are 1100-1300. I shut my skimmer off at night to keep pH up.