FLUKES NOT GOING AWAY

[Weeb]

My tank fluctuates between 76.5 and 79.5 on a particular day depending on my ac use. That wouldn’t cause a problem right.

I’m trying to figure out WHY they got sick. Here are my three theories.
1.temp fluctuations
2. I accidentally fed them spoiled clams a couple times
3 random bad luck

1. Temperature fluctuations can cause stress, and a stressed fish is more susceptible to parasites/disease, but the temperature changes do not, in of themselves cause disease.
2. The fish might not have eaten spoiled foods and if they did, they get a bad 'stomach ache' or poisoning. Like in 1. it might be a stressor.
3. Hobbyists often fall back on 'luck' when things go wrong. But I notice hobbyists never claim it is luck when all things are going well. I believe, in this hobby, we can provide the best environment for our 'inmates' and the best foods which make the fish thrive, not just survive. This isn't luck, good or bad; it is diligence, understanding/knowledge, attention to details, and work.

 

[sfin52]

I KNOW its not ich just trust me.

I did a freshwater dip on the tang. I mean all the symptoms point to flukes. I have no idea what else it could be. The fish has no secondary infection no spots nothing. Its just odd to see a fish two weeks into treatment have its worse day yesterday.

Doesn't mean they don't have ich. It can be in the gills and you don't see it till it hits the body

 

[vetteguy53081]

My tank fluctuates between 76.5 and 79.5 on a particular day depending on my ac use. That wouldn’t cause a problem right.

I’m trying to figure out WHY they got sick. Here are my three theories.
1.temp fluctuations
2. I accidentally fed them spoiled clams a couple times
3 random bad luck

Temperature changes can have effect as does illness. Information is lacking as to onset, breathing rate whether normal or labored last 3-5 days, behaviors such as scratching, darting, loss of appetite, weight loss, swimming at surface, etc. Your temperature ranges are acceptable in degree of temp and if you are running A/C and have a reliable heater, should not be allowed to continually drop.

 

[sal16cal1]

1. Temperature fluctuations can cause stress, and a stressed fish is more susceptible to parasites/disease, but the temperature changes do not, in of themselves cause disease.
2. The fish might not have eaten spoiled foods and if they did, they get a bad 'stomach ache' or poisoning. Like in 1. it might be a stressor.
3. Hobbyists often fall back on 'luck' when things go wrong. But I notice hobbyists never claim it is luck when all things are going well. I believe, in this hobby, we can provide the best environment for our 'inmates' and the best foods which make the fish thrive, not just survive. This isn't luck, good or bad; it is diligence, understanding/knowledge, attention to details, and work.

Since I got this tank I’ve had severe ocd I love the hobby. Talk about going overboard with water changes . When I say I’m on top of the tank it’s to the max not always healthy lol. Sometimes it makes the hobby not fun because of me torturing myself. That said I probably ****** something up if only you guys saw me feed lol. I think you guys are right this should be a three fish tank.

November I started the tank I just threw fish in the tank all at once I did general cure for a month. You could imagine how that went.

March/April ich outbreak did copper for 40 days in the display.

June the fluke outbreak of 2023.

The first two I blame myself and inexperience.

That’s not all my dad started a tank after me. Don’t ask me why he put a candle on top of the tank poisoned the whole tank must of killed a grand worth a fish. Had to rip the tank apart and start over. Lol


FYI Bingo(dogface) looks like a new fish today.

 

[hunterallen40]

My tank fluctuates between 76.5 and 79.5 on a particular day depending on my ac use. That wouldn’t cause a problem right.

I’m trying to figure out WHY they got sick. Here are my three theories.
1.temp fluctuations
2. I accidentally fed them spoiled clams a couple times
3 random bad luck

They were sick the whole time, just not symptomatic. A stress event weakened their immune system, and the parasites they were managing before got the upper hand.

This is where the importance of quarantine comes in. After the full 30 days, you are good to go for ich + flukes.

Really glad to know the puffer is doing better!

 

[sal16cal1]

One member mentioned too many fish. I’m starting to be inclined to believe. I think I might give my dad the tang. There the less hardy of the 4 fish.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

One member mentioned too many fish. I’m starting to be inclined to believe. I think I might give my dad the tang. There the less hardy of the 4 fish.

Ich (and many other parasitic diseases) propagate more easily in crowded tanks. The reproductive propagules have an easier time of finding a host in crowded tanks, so they can reproduce better, causing the disease to progress more quickly.

Jay

 

[Weeb]

After the full 30 days, you are good to go for ich + flukes.

Unfortunately, not always for flukes. Flukes can take months to finally express themselves (e.g., by the fish quickly loosing weight, death). I think that Chemoprophylaxis treatment is best for flukes.

 

[sal16cal1]

Random questions Myth or Reality

-Prime/anmguard actually detoxifies ammonia. Doesn’t matter how high the ammonia levels are it will save your fish in emergencies
-No over the counter ich medicines besides copper work.
-lion fish are hardy fish
-during a cycle your protein skimmer should be off.
-using polyfilter too much is bad for your aquarium.

The last one I’m asking because ever since I took out my polyfilter pads my ammonia has started to tick up again. This doesn’t feel like a mini cycle.

 

[hunterallen40]

Prime/anmguard actually detoxifies ammonia. Doesn’t matter how high the ammonia levels are it will save your fish in emergencies

Unfortunately, I'm convinced this is a false claim from the manufacturer. There are several threads on here that show thorough testing of this concept, and none of them have been able to show a reduction in ammonia or a conversion of it into a safer form.

No over the counter ich medicines besides copper work.

False. There are definitely other options for treating ich, but results may vary. One such option-wise chloroquine phosphate, but that's VERY tough to get your hands on.

There are also non-chemical methods to treat ich, such as the tank transfer method which use the parasite's lifecycle against it.

Also hyposalinity, but I think you know that .

during a cycle your protein skimmer should be off.

This question can elicit a good amount of differing opinions. I left mine off while cycling, but I am not sure it is going to be bad if you run it during a cycle.

using polyfilter too much is bad for your aquarium.

I had to look up what that was, to be honest. It seems to be an absorber that can absorb ammonia among other things... I can see too much of it being a bad thing, but only because too much of most things is usually a bad thing.

I think you are too focused on your ammonia concentration. It's really easy to make a blanket statement like "any ammonia is toxic, and therefore you should never be able to detect it." It's much harder to do this when your biofilter is compromised. Just watch your fish for signs of ammonia burn. You will 100% know when it becomes a problem.

I think that Chemoprophylaxis treatment is best for flukes.

This is 100% true. The best way to keep these situations from happening is chemoprophylaxis. All my fish go through QT. It's just not worth the risk.

 

[sal16cal1]

Unfortunately, I'm convinced this is a false claim from the manufacturer. There are several threads on here that show thorough testing of this concept, and none of them have been able to show a reduction in ammonia or a conversion of it into a safer form.



False. There are definitely other options for treating ich, but results may vary. One such option-wise chloroquine phosphate, but that's VERY tough to get your hands on.

There are also non-chemical methods to treat ich, such as the tank transfer method which use the parasite's lifecycle against it.

Also hyposalinity, but I think you know that .



This question can elicit a good amount of differing opinions. I left mine off while cycling, but I am not sure it is going to be bad if you run it during a cycle.



I had to look up what that was, to be honest. It seems to be an absorber that can absorb ammonia among other things... I can see too much of it being a bad thing, but only because too much of most things is usually a bad thing.

I think you are too focused on your ammonia concentration. It's really easy to make a blanket statement like "any ammonia is toxic, and therefore you should never be able to detect it." It's much harder to do this when your biofilter is compromised. Just watch your fish for signs of ammonia burn. You will 100% know when it becomes a problem.



This is 100% true. The best way to keep these situations from happening is chemoprophylaxis. All my fish go through QT. It's just not worth the risk.

What is chemoprophylaxis? How do you get it

 

[sal16cal1]

Unfortunately, I'm convinced this is a false claim from the manufacturer. There are several threads on here that show thorough testing of this concept, and none of them have been able to show a reduction in ammonia or a conversion of it into a safer form.



False. There are definitely other options for treating ich, but results may vary. One such option-wise chloroquine phosphate, but that's VERY tough to get your hands on.

There are also non-chemical methods to treat ich, such as the tank transfer method which use the parasite's lifecycle against it.

Also hyposalinity, but I think you know that .



This question can elicit a good amount of differing opinions. I left mine off while cycling, but I am not sure it is going to be bad if you run it during a cycle.



I had to look up what that was, to be honest. It seems to be an absorber that can absorb ammonia among other things... I can see too much of it being a bad thing, but only because too much of most things is usually a bad thing.

I think you are too focused on your ammonia concentration. It's really easy to make a blanket statement like "any ammonia is toxic, and therefore you should never be able to detect it." It's much harder to do this when your biofilter is compromised. Just watch your fish for signs of ammonia burn. You will 100% know when it becomes a problem.



This is 100% true. The best way to keep these situations from happening is chemoprophylaxis. All my fish go through QT. It's just not worth the risk.

Anytime my ammonia reads over .25 I do a 33% water change. I’m talking about .30-.36. Am I going overboard?

 

[hunterallen40]

What is chemoprophylaxis? How do you get it

Chemoprophylaxis is the practice of medicating fish to prevent a disease. Going through a full, medicated quarantine is the best way to prevent ich, velvet, flukes, brook, etc.

Anytime my ammonia reads over .25 I do a 33% water change. I’m talking about .30-.36. Am I going overboard?

That is definitely an amount to be worried about. But let's do a quick thought experiment... The 33% water change will reduce a concentration of 0.3 to 0.2, if the salt has absolutely no ammonia (which, I hate to say it, but they almost all have ammonia). You also run the risk of slightly boosting / lowering salinity. It is really important that your salinity remain at 1.009 without deviating.

I'm not saying to ignore the problem, but at this point I would be dosing microbocter7 (or whatever additive you prefer) daily. Your biological filter is compromised, and it needs some help.

 

[sal16cal1]

Chemoprophylaxis is the practice of medicating fish to prevent a disease. Going through a full, medicated quarantine is the best way to prevent ich, velvet, flukes, brook, etc.



That is definitely an amount to be worried about. But let's do a quick thought experiment... The 33% water change will reduce a concentration of 0.3 to 0.2, if the salt has absolutely no ammonia (which, I hate to say it, but they almost all have ammonia). You also run the risk of slightly boosting / lowering salinity. It is really important that your salinity remain at 1.009 without deviating.

I'm not saying to ignore the problem, but at this point I would be dosing microbocter7 (or whatever additive you prefer) daily. Your biological filter is compromised, and it needs some help.

I have stability on hand who knows if it works I’ll turn off the UV and give it a shot

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Random questions Myth or Reality

-Prime/anmguard actually detoxifies ammonia. Doesn’t matter how high the ammonia levels are it will save your fish in emergencies
-No over the counter ich medicines besides copper work.
-lion fish are hardy fish
-during a cycle your protein skimmer should be off.
-using polyfilter too much is bad for your aquarium.

The last one I’m asking because ever since I took out my polyfilter pads my ammonia has started to tick up again. This doesn’t feel like a mini cycle.

Here are my answers:

-Prime/anmguard actually detoxifies ammonia. Doesn’t matter how high the ammonia levels are it will save your fish in emergencies I hear a lot about Prime not working as advertised. I have not tested it. I use Amquel or Amquel+

-No over the counter ich medicines besides copper work. None of the "reef safe" medications work, unless other control methods are used at the same time (UV, bottom siphoning, etc.). Hyposalinity or amine-based copper medications are the best things to use. Chloroquine also works, but is not "over the counter" for most people.

-lion fish are hardy fish Very hardy at first, but after a few years of captive care, they are very prone to hepatic lipidosis, fatty liver disease. The jury is still out as to why this happens. Improper fatty acid profiles and/or overfeeding are the two most popular ideas.

-during a cycle your protein skimmer should be off. Yes, if you are using bottled bacteria to cycle the tank. If you are allowing the bacteria to colonize the tank naturally, it doesn't matter, but you won't collect much skimmate.

-using polyfilter too much is bad for your aquarium. IDK - I only use that product to help manage toxic water conditions like heavy metal contamination.

Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Unfortunately, not always for flukes. Flukes can take months to finally express themselves (e.g., by the fish quickly loosing weight, death). I think that Chemoprophylaxis treatment is best for flukes.

The only flukes that full hyposalinity does NOT work for are a few, rarer euryhaline species. It is actually the best way to control Neobenedenia. Egg laying gill flukes are also tough to control with medications, getting the egg hatching time just right is very difficult.

The only time I have seen hypo not to work on flukes is in cases where the fish were housed with brackish water species, and they picked up some low salinity flukes from those.

Jay

 

[sal16cal1]

Here are my answers:

-Prime/anmguard actually detoxifies ammonia. Doesn’t matter how high the ammonia levels are it will save your fish in emergencies I hear a lot about Prime not working as advertised. I have not tested it. I use Amquel or Amquel+

-No over the counter ich medicines besides copper work. None of the "reef safe" medications work, unless other control methods are used at the same time (UV, bottom siphoning, etc.). Hyposalinity or amine-based copper medications are the best things to use. Chloroquine also works, but is not "over the counter" for most people.

-lion fish are hardy fish Very hardy at first, but after a few years of captive care, they are very prone to hepatic lipidosis, fatty liver disease. The jury is still out as to why this happens. Improper fatty acid profiles and/or overfeeding are the two most popular ideas.

-during a cycle your protein skimmer should be off. Yes, if you are using bottled bacteria to cycle the tank. If you are allowing the bacteria to colonize the tank naturally, it doesn't matter, but you won't collect much skimmate.

-using polyfilter too much is bad for your aquarium. IDK - I only use that product to help manage toxic water conditions like heavy metal contamination.

Jay

I’ve used Prime and other water conditioners. Nothing compares to Amquel holy crap. My ammonia was at .20 this morning. I added Amquel around 7 am my ammonia is down to .02.

 

[sal16cal1]

I’ve used Prime and other water conditioners. Nothing compares to Amquel holy crap. My ammonia was at .20 this morning. I added Amquel around 7 am my ammonia is down to .02.

I’m throwing some dead mollies in water and gonna do an ammonia test. Then put Amquel, stability, prime and microblift in separate buckets then test. I’ll let you guys know how it turns out.

 

[Weeb]

-lion fish are hardy fish Very hardy at first, but after a few years of captive care, they are very prone to hepatic lipidosis, fatty liver disease. The jury is still out as to why this happens. Improper fatty acid profiles and/or overfeeding are the two most popular ideas.

The problem is that wild-caught Lionfish have fatty liver disease. There was a study done on this: Parasitism and Fatty Liver Disease in the Invasive Red Lionfish, Pterois Volitans (Linnaeus), Along the Gulf of Mexico where it found: "A baseline study of fatty liver analysis in lionfish revealed that >85% of examined fish displayed evidence of fatty liver disease, and most exhibited moderate degrees of disease. Sex, location, and standard length of lionfish did not play a significant role in degree of disease, though slight disease differences were observed among locations."

It would seem that Lionfish are prone to fatty liver disease -- in the wild and in captivity. In captivity Fatty Liver Disease in Captive Marine Fishes articles suggest a diet to reduce the likelihood of Lionfish getting fatty liver disease, but will/does it work? If the fish has a proclivity for the disease. . .

 

[Jay Hemdal]

The problem is that wild-caught Lionfish have fatty liver disease. There was a study done on this: Parasitism and Fatty Liver Disease in the Invasive Red Lionfish, Pterois Volitans (Linnaeus), Along the Gulf of Mexico where it found: "A baseline study of fatty liver analysis in lionfish revealed that >85% of examined fish displayed evidence of fatty liver disease, and most exhibited moderate degrees of disease. Sex, location, and standard length of lionfish did not play a significant role in degree of disease, though slight disease differences were observed among locations."

It would seem that Lionfish are prone to fatty liver disease -- in the wild and in captivity. In captivity Fatty Liver Disease in Captive Marine Fishes articles suggest a diet to reduce the likelihood of Lionfish getting fatty liver disease, but will/does it work? If the fish has a proclivity for the disease. . .

Yes, I've seen that study. It needs to be replicated in the lionfish's home range. Reason being, it is very common for invasive species to have better access to food than normally would be the case. I documented that with invasive round gobies in the Great Lakes. When they first entered the ecosystem, they grew HUGE because of all the food that was available to them. Over the decades, their size has normalized. Lionfish, with too much food available, don't grow to giant sizes, they are just going to develop fatty livers.

Oh, and that second article you linked to? With "Jeff Kurtz" on the byline? I wrote that (grin). I've since updated that quite a bit for my new fish disease book....

Jay