Something is VERY wrong with my fish

[Breakthecycle2]

I need a consensus here on what I should do. Should I hypo my DT? I have a friend that will take the corals and inverts or just take apart the whole tank again, get the fish out and leave the tank fishless?

 

[kschweer]

I vote take the tank apart and get the remaining fish into QT and leave the tank fallow.

 

[Lynn52]

I agree with kschweer.

 

[Breakthecycle2]

Can I use this in my QT to control ammonia?

http://www.hikariusa.com/solutions/waterconditioner/cloram-x/

 

[kschweer]

Can I use this in my QT to control ammonia?

http://www.hikariusa.com/solutions/waterconditioner/cloram-x/

No. You can't use water conditioner when using copper. It makes the copper much more toxic.

 

[Breakthecycle2]

No. You can't use water conditioner when using copper. It makes the copper much more toxic.

Even this stuff? I spoke to Hikari and they told me this is fine with copper.

 

[4FordFamily]

I found one of those Seachem ammonia badges at petco. The color indicator is not yellow (safe) nor is it blue. It's like a grey color. I did a 10 gallon water change today. Copper levels as of yesterday were .15.

If anything other than yellow you need to be changing nearly all of the water. Mine got to a yellow/green hue barely green and I replaced 75% of a 55 gal

 

[4FordFamily]

I vote take the tank apart and get the remaining fish into QT and leave the tank fallow.

This.

 

[kschweer]

Even this stuff? I spoke to Hikari and they told me this is fine with copper.

I have always been told not to use water conditioners with copper especially cupramine. If hikari says it's ok I guess you can go for it. I do think that it may reduce your copper level at the very least.

 

[4FordFamily]

I don't know how to say this in a nice way, so I will just be blunt.

The worst thing you can do is have one foot in one solution and one in another. By now you should be close to therapeutic copper levels, and have a fishless DT for a week now. Are you using cupramine? What copper are you using?

We mentioned from day one that you needed the ammonia badge, not to use ammoni detoxifying products, etc.

You aren't committed to a solution and your fish will and are suffering for it. The fish in qt weren't exposed to a therapeutic dose yet. They were basically set in a strange tank and stressed out while still being eaten alive, of course they died. Stress kills but if handled properly it's the path of least resistance with an infestation as you describe and with fish you wish to keep. (So long as there is a therapeutic level of medication present)

Much advice appears to have been overlooked. You didn't do any dips to relieve fish prior to going in the DT which was also suggested so that it may provide immediate relief until you got copper levels where you needed to (therapeutic levels).

You aren't answering critical questions so that we can assist you. You're taking advice from several people with conflicting views, which is fine but pick one. Being on the fence at this point has likely costed some lives of fish and certainly unproductive time you could have spend towards the end goal solution.

I'm sorry to be short, I know it's confusing, difficult, irritating, and there is a lot of conflicting viewpoints. This is just not something that you can afford to be "wishy washy" about. Pick a solution that people you trust and feel have great experience and track record put forth (and you trust). If that isn't what we suggest, fine.

We are trying to help you.

Again, I am sorry if I upset you with how I said this, but IMO it needed to be said. We don't think any less of you, we have all been there. You just need to fully commit and act, and do it quickly. Halfway doing anything only makes the problem worse. Done properly and everything taken note of, gives you your best chance.

There are copious threads that are scientifically and experientially/anecdotally supported that have been provided here and are available to read on R2R.

I have thousands of dollars of fish, I don't even want to admit the total value of my collection because it's embarrassing. I didn't get here and invest in these fish without a clue of what I am talking about. That said, there are plenty others wiser than me. Let's rock and roll and save as many fish as possible. They've all been infected so long it may be too late for many of them but let's work together to minimize stress and losses. Most importantly, let's learn from it!

We've all learned expensive and sad lessons from mistakes. I wish you luck buddy let me know if I can help with whatever you choose. I'll continue to try!

 

[4FordFamily]

I have always been told not to use water conditioners with copper especially cupramine. If hikari says it's ok I guess you can go for it. I do think that it may reduce your copper level at the very least.

Unless hikari has a guarantee willing to pay out in the case of poisoned fish i would go the 100% safe route I used. Heavy daily water changes. Just my .02 though

 

[Lowell Lemon]

The biggest problem in this thread is diagnosis by heresay. Not one qualified examination by a qualified DOCTOR using a microscope to determine the actual causative organism. So we all resort to anicdotial evidence while our fellow fish keeper hastens the death of their beloved aquatic pets through added stress and a shotgun attempt to kill who knows what without an actual diagnosis. Good luck with that! The person that suggested a proper U.V. is the only advise that makes sense. The U.V. prevents the population of potential organisms from reaching a population density that poses a health threat to the fish. I have helped many pet stores lower their loss rates below 5% by use of proper filtration and U.V. sterilization. Their loss rates exceeded 30% or more before the upgrades. The majority of fish stores do not quarantine in a separate system from their main holding system. If you doubt that ask them to view their fish quarantine system. You may have to prepare yourself for the truth. So you are buying stressed fish just hours out of the bag in many situations without knowing it. There are other organisms that live on a healthy fish that can manifest symptoms that are mentioned here. They eat dead epithelial cells and help the fish to appear bright and healthy until the fish is stressed and the organisms become pathogenic. Again without a proper diagnosis no thrapy is safe for the fish in question. Please seek the help of a qualified doctor if you have one in the area before making huge changes to what was a stable system until the current event. Nothing good happens in a hurry in a reef tank in my experience. Just my opinion.

 

[Humblefish]

I vote take the tank apart and get the remaining fish into QT and leave the tank fallow.

^^I'm with this guy.

 

[Humblefish]

The biggest problem in this thread is diagnosis by heresay. Not one qualified examination by a qualified DOCTOR using a microscope to determine the actual causative organism. So we all resort to anicdotial evidence while our fellow fish keeper hastens the death of their beloved aquatic pets through added stress and a shotgun attempt to kill who knows what without an actual diagnosis. Good luck with that! The person that suggested a proper U.V. is the only advise that makes sense. The U.V. prevents the population of potential organisms from reaching a population density that poses a health threat to the fish. I have helped many pet stores lower their loss rates below 5% by use of proper filtration and U.V. sterilization. Their loss rates exceeded 30% or more before the upgrades. The majority of fish stores do not quarantine in a separate system from their main holding system. If you doubt that ask them to view their fish quarantine system. You may have to prepare yourself for the truth. So you are buying stressed fish just hours out of the bag in many situations without knowing it. There are other organisms that live on a healthy fish that can manifest symptoms that are mentioned here. They eat dead epithelial cells and help the fish to appear bright and healthy until the fish is stressed and the organisms become pathogenic. Again without a proper diagnosis no thrapy is safe for the fish in question. Please seek the help of a qualified doctor if you have one in the area before making huge changes to what was a stable system until the current event. Nothing good happens in a hurry in a reef tank in my experience. Just my opinion.

A UV has its time & place, but IMO not in a fish disease emergency situation. The UV can possibly prevent the emergency from ever happening in the first place, but that only applies to certain diseases i.e. ich, bacterial infections, etc. However, once the number of parasites have gotten out of hand, no UV, ozone, diatom filter, etc. is going to save you. Certainly not from Marine Velvet Disease. And everything about this thread just screams of the disease in play here being velvet. True, there is no way to be sure without a culture sample which can then be scope ID'd. Diagnosing fish diseases over the Internet will always be guess work, and very often the end user is never 100% sure when they treat. But what's the alternative? UV sterilizers have been used on marine aquariums, with varying degrees of success, for at least the past 20-25 years that I am aware of. I've owned several. And IME; they can be useful in certain situations... but a UV is not the "silver bullet" fix-all you are making it out to be. If it was, 20+ years later, it would be considered necessary equipment for every home saltwater aquarium.

 

[Breakthecycle2]

Im not understanding some of these responses. I did buy a ammonia badge. I do water changes every day. I am dosing cupamine after every water change. No, I did not freshwater dip many of the fish because afterwards it killed an already stressed fish. The remaining ones in QT seem to have gotten rid of whatever it is they have. I also do have a 57w Aqua Ultraviolet UV as I have stated in previous posts. No other unit will fit under my stand. What is therapeutic levels of copper? It is already .15. How much higher do I need to go? I have stated several times what my copper levels are in previous posts.

 

[Humblefish]

What is therapeutic levels of copper? It is already .15. How much higher do I need to go? I have stated several times what my copper levels are in previous posts.

If you are using Cupramine, then the minimum therapeutic dosage is 0.35 mg/L. However, I generally keep it around 0.5 because that's what's easy to read on the test kit. Which FYI, you must use either a Seachem or Salifert test kit for measuring Cupramine. And it's a good idea to test your Cu level daily.

 

[4FordFamily]

Im not understanding some of these responses. I did buy a ammonia badge. I do water changes every day. I am dosing cupamine after every water change. No, I did not freshwater dip many of the fish because afterwards it killed an already stressed fish. The remaining ones in QT seem to have gotten rid of whatever it is they have. I also do have a 57w Aqua Ultraviolet UV as I have stated in previous posts. No other unit will fit under my stand. What is therapeutic levels of copper? It is already .15. How much higher do I need to go? I have stated several times what my copper levels are in previous posts.

I use .55-.8to protect against downward swings. I've not had trouble with this range. I've used .5 and had strains get through, but that's just my experience

 

[Breakthecycle2]

OK. Here's the finaly diagnosis. I had someone anyalyze my pictures and look at my remaining fish. It does not appear to be Velvet. It is flukes and possibly ICH. Flukes because of the rate the fish are dying off and how quickly with no outside visible symptoms. No one has any spots, however, the cloudy eyes both my snow bass and Tang had appears to be a fluke infestation. The fish in the tank, at least one wrasse is scratching his gills/head on the substrate. Now I am even more confused because of the lack of white spot on any of my remaining fish both in the DT and QT. I have pazipro.

 

[Humblefish]

OK. Here's the finaly diagnosis. I had someone anyalyze my pictures and look at my remaining fish. It does not appear to be Velvet. It is flukes and possibly ICH. Flukes because of the rate the fish are dying off and how quickly with no outside visible symptoms. No one has any spots, however, the cloudy eyes both my snow bass and Tang had appears to be a fluke infestation. The fish in the tank, at least one wrasse is scratching his gills/head on the substrate. Now I am even more confused because of the lack of white spot on any of my remaining fish both in the DT and QT. I have pazipro.

Flukes are easily confirmed via a FW dip. At around the 3-4 min mark you should see tiny white specks fall out of the fish... especially out of the gills. I like to use a black bucket because the contrast makes them easier to see.

Or you can just treat your entire DT plus QT with Prazipro and hope the person who analyzed your pics is right. However, to eradicate ich you will still need to treat with copper, hyposalinity, chloroquine phosphate or tank transfer method. None are reef safe, so you will still need to go fallow in the DT for 72 days.

 

[Breakthecycle2]

Can I use prazipro and copper in the qt?